People are physical, rational, and spiritual

Faith & Science Conversation
61

Dear Shawn, do you sincerely believe it? I would believe it if Lene tells me how I could repeat the same thing.

Last year, I met a young woman. She told me when we saw the street was empty, she actually could see lots of cars and people and hear the traffic noise. And when she’s a teenage girl, one day a beggar came into her home and begged for food. She gave her some leftover. But her mother was also there and saw nobody coming in!
I dismissed it as some mental issue. But she looked sincere. I don’t think she lied.
And who took away the leftover? Does a spirit need the physical food?
Again, I am ready to believe if I could repeat it.

62

Dear Shaun,
I have read the collection of 2,000+ lectures over the 35 years that Lene (and Josef) taught. I have found no contradictions within the 35 years, which is not true for the other spiritual messages that I have studied.

Best Wishes, Shawn

63

Why should everything be repeatable? What if you had an experience which nobody could repeat? Does that mean it didn’t happen or that it wasn’t real? If you think so, then it sounds like the only reality you are interested in is one you can control, and God will never be a part of that.

64

OK, what is the role of the spirit in raising my hand? First the physical by itself does not act. A rock which is physical does not move by itself. My hand can move, but it does not unless I tell it to move. It is the mind or the rational which orders my hand to move, so this is where the rational comes it.

Research has shown that emotions are essential in making decisions. Persons who are without emotions have difficulty in doing things because they are constantly changing their minds as new thoughts come to mind. Therefore to raise my hand as a deliberate movement requires spiritual input.

65

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not intermediaries, they are God.

The kingdom of heaven is populated by the Saints, and not angels. Angels are not citizens, they are employees.

The prayer does not say “come to us,” but “come, Your Will be done.” We know God’s Will through the Logos and the Holy Spirit, not angels.

Just curious. When was the last time you conversed with an angel and what did she/he reveal to you?

66

Dear Roger,

The last time was at Easter. Lene taught for 35 years and all of these lectures were recorded and transcribed into the original German and the English translation is ongoing. They are available to examine using 1 John 4 to insure that they are from God.

Best Wishes, Shawn

67

I don’t think the spirit operates the puppet body either. That’s why I used the word “interaction”. There must be sort of interaction between them. You said it’s because “not causally closed”. Did you mean the spirit could do something non physical but the physical body could be influenced?

Yes, the spiritual input! But how could the physical body be influenced by the spiritual input?

The difference between being not repeatable and repeatable:
If it’s not repeatable, then even if it’s true, there’s no way you could be sure when it would happen. It’s unpredictable. It could still be valuable knowledge though.
If it’s repeatable, and we can discover the pattern “if conditions met, then you can expect certain results”, then it’s more valuable knowledge.

And, how could we know what someone says is not illusion or delusion, or even lies? Repeating it will certainly help.

68

That possibility is included in what I meant.

  1. In physics we have discovered that the so called “laws of nature” consist of mathematical space-time geometrical relationships. Thus physical things are not only what they are because of this space-time mathematical structure and relationships which they are a part of, but these also govern their behavior and changes.
  2. Spiritual things are not a part of this structure of space-time relationships. They are what they are because of their own nature alone, and thus it is that nature alone which governs their behavior and changes.

If this was all there was to it, then there would seem to be no possibility of relationships and causal connections between the two. But there are a few detail not covered by the above…

  1. a. The so called “laws of nature” i.e. mathematical space-time relationships include quantum physics, which much to the consternation of many physicists has demonstrated that some events have no determining cause within the premises of the scientific worldview. In other words the so called “laws of nature” or mathematical space-time relationships are not causally closed.
  2. a. Although spiritual things are naturally apart from any external relationships and thus immune to any external forces, this actually depends on their own nature. In other words relationships to things outside of them can be a part of their own nature. And while they are naturally immune to any destructive forces external to them, they will be subject to self-destructive tendencies which are a part of their own nature.

As a consequence the following things are possible after all…

  1. b. The course of events in the physical universe can be altered by non-physical agents via these events which have no cause within the premises of the scientific worldview, since this does not exclude causes which are outside those premises/restrictions. However, it should be noted that this possibility of interaction is very restrictive, since a consistent pattern of interaction would alter the space-time relationships and laws of nature themselves.
  2. b. Spirits can be interacted with and affected by other spiritual things and even physical things if a connection with these things are a part of their own nature. For those spirits which take their form and nature from the choices of a living organism, they naturally have a connection to that living organism. Other connections and relationships will depend on the choices made by those living organisms.

Correct. You cannot expect to control things in this category. And if someone claims or implies that sort of control then you can easily conclude that some sort of deception is going on (maybe self deception). God is in this category. This is why the approach to God is generally said to be one of submission only. And if someone is claiming any kind of control or entitlement in relation to God, then this may very well be an example of religion made into a scam or tool of power.

It is only more valuable to you if value control more.

You don’t. Therefore the things in this category cannot be considered to provide a reasonable expectation that others will agree. Diversity of thought must therefore be accepted as an inherent characteristic of things in this category.

69

Are you saying that you do not understand how our physical bodies are influenced by love or hate, which are spiritual? That is fairly obvious to me.

70

@mitchellmckain tried to answer the same question. It didn’t look that obvious.

71

Sometimes the things which are “obvious” to some people are just incorrect. The fact is that the bio-chemistry and electrochemical impulses of love and hate are identifiable and measurable. Furthermore this functionality in the human brain can be influenced by damage and disease, even to the point of going haywire. This kind of dualism just doesn’t work anymore.

72

When one lives in a dualistic universe (intellectually,) one has a dualistic view of reality, physical and spiritual. That is false, if only because humans are spiritual as well as physical (and rational) beings. Human beings can love and know, which makes them spiritual, rational, and physical.

The only other obvious spiritual Being is God, Who is the Source of physical reality and the Source of Rational and Spiritual Reality. If you want to make a diagram, you start on one side with God, Creator, Logos, and Spirit, then it becomes diverse from there to the Universe itself which is physical, rational (ideas,) and spiritual (ideals.)

Finally we have humanity the observers who unite and understand the universe physically, rationally, and spiritually through Knowledge (the arts and scie4nces,) Philosophy, which is how we think and how we know, and Theology and Ethics, or the spiritual aspect of life.

The universe is a unified system of three aspects of reality that God in God’s power, wisdom, and goodness designed. Of the universe were strictly physical, it would not be rational, because physical does not think. If the universe were not spiritual, it would not change or grow, because the physical on its own does not grow, is not alive.

People are able to express ideas in books made up of paper and ink. Does that mean that those ideas are physical? No way. Just as people are able to encode their experiences into ideas and words which they store in their minds, and then take those ideas and words and organize them into sentences and paragraphs and chapters to create a book. If the book accurately recreates the original experience and transmits it to others, it is successful.

The spiritual is more involved, so we use words, but also music, stories, drama and other tools to convey the spiritual meaning of life. The spiritual involves the emotional as well as the rational.

Of course the mind can be injured by damage to the brain. The physical and the rational and the spiritual are closely interdependent. On the other hand because knowledge can be separated from the mind by writing and speaking, this knowledge is preserved even after the mind is dead in the libraries of the world and the Bible.

We know that a person is dead if their body is dead. Now we understand that a person is dead if their brain and mind are dead, even if their physical self is able to live a long time on life supports. In a real sense a person is dead if she/he is spiritually dead (totally selfish), but the spirit can be revived if he/she turns to Jesus Christ for salvation.

73

We are able to make paper and ink out of molecules. Does that mean those things are physical? Just because we can make an abstract representation of paper and ink in our brain, in our language, and in our books and other communication media does not mean paper and ink are not physical. We have no more reason to believe that love and hate are any less physical than paper and ink.

And while we have no reason to believe that love and hate are not physical, we have plenty of reasons to believe they are physical. We can not only identify and measure the biochemistry and electrochemical impulses, but we can both create and inhibit them with physical actions on the brain. This remains the case even if non-physical things exist as I believe they do. I am just not as willing to support invalid arguments for the things I believe in.

The body and mind are interdependent – both are physical. But physical and spiritual are not interdependent. The spirit takes its form and nature from the choices of physical organism but the spirit is not dependent upon the physical, and the physical is not in any way dependent upon the spirit either. Such medieval magical notions of the spirit are no longer supportable. The physical causes for physical events can be identified and isolated with no possibility of a non-physical controller, because that would be measurable and no such thing is measured.

Yes information can be copied and stored in different formats. Information is as much a subject of physics as matter and energy – an entirely measurable physical quantity. There is nothing non-physical about any of it.

In that case the body is alive not dead. It is simply not sufficiently functional to support the life of the mind, which is a living organism in its own right… with its own needs and separate inheritance. But this only underlines its physicality.

YES! The life of the spirit is completely independent of the life of the mind and body and visa versa. This demonstrates that your claim of interdependence between physical and spiritual is wrong.

74

Mitchell, if what you said was true, then it’s time to design a device. Something from possibility to actuality would be of great value. So far nobody is able to detect a spiritual thing or a spiritual signal with a physical device.

Such a device is obviously by your idea possible.

75

Dear Shaun, How can you make this statement with over 7 billion individuals in the world? Even if 0.01% are clairvoyant, this statement is false. I personally know 5 clairvoyant’s, each with a different level of ability. Some can only see ghosts and human spirits, but two can also see fairies, elves, gnomes and angels. If you would have done a comparative study of art around the world, you will find that a very small percentage of the population has always been able to see into the spiritual world. And, the images that they produce of the spiritual world are consistent.

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From “Die entschleierte Aura” Gisela Weigl, Franz Wenzel

76

Read a few dialogues further carefully, please.
And I was talking about a device, something you can hold moving around and expect to see signals.

77

Dear Shaun, I did read them carefully. I acknowledge that technology may advance itself at some point to be able to detect spiritual beings. The Aurastar 2000 has already made this attempt, but none of these devices can be verified without a number of talented clairvoyants to verify the accuracy of the device and verify what it is detecting.
Best Wishes, Shawn

78

Thank you Shawn. But what the Aurastar can detect is physical, not spiritual.
I asked Mitchell if he could design a physical device that could directly detect spiritual inputs, which by his idea is possible.

79

You do not consider the aura to be spiritual, but physical?

80

Shawn, please read Mitchell’s post 68.