Paranormal Science And The Bible

I think you just excluded me from eternal life, and every other Trinitarian here, as well, which would be most of us.

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Satan is the adversary to the King. But without the Grace of God he would not be alive, and he knows this.

You said,

You have not substantiated that at all.

It is simply the words of Jesus in John 8:12 “Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

Yeah this is way beyond simply expressing a difference of opinion. I don’t approve when fundamental Xtians do this sort of thing – imagining that they not only speak for God but judge for God as well. But doing this with some non-Christian dogma is the essence of real heresy – editing the Bible with their own words and condemning the rest of Christianity like JWs and Mormons did. It is the classic Gnostic gospel of salvation by special knowledge – either we buy into his mystical angelic claptrap or we are going to hell. Well… Jesus promises us that such people will be judged by their own standard. I know I wouldn’t want to be judged by the correctness of my theological stands – not because I am less certain they are correct than they are (because I am not), but because that sort of arrogance is just too foolish of a foundation for ones eternal life.

I also figured this HAD to be a logical fallacy – thought it might even be called the you-are-going-to-hell fallacy. Actually the name is “argumentum in terrorem” or argument from fear. In any case, I thought this was the sort of the last resort when someone argumentation was coming apart under scrutiny.

Not without a lot more development and explanation of that naked claim, it isn’t.


And you have completely ignored this:

Get to it, please. Otherwise it is just a sick joke.

How can argue that anything exists outside of God’s Will. Satan exists because it is is God’s Will and the only dispute is whether Satan knows this. I assume he does, but that does not change the fact that he exists per God’s Will. Satan was created in the Fall and the revolt was not against God, but the King. There is no way 1/3 of Heaven could have believed that they could conquer God.

(Are you in Switzerland? It’s 3 a.m. there [content removed by moderator]. :slightly_smiling_face:)

Who said anything about anything existing outside of God’s will? And what has that to do with Satan’s loving God?

People (and evil spirits) can be deceived, can’t they. Maybe even by mediums and lying spirits.

Yes, but the 1/3 of Heaven that was deceived were divine beings. If Satan could have deceived 1/3 of Heaven, humanity is easy prey. Example 1 is Adam and Eve.

diving beings???

Is this polytheism or the Gnostic notion of sparks of divinity floating about some of which have been trapped in a mortal shell?

The Biblical view of angels is not that of diving beings but of servants. They are created spirits that will never be more than exactly what they were created to be. I do not believe that Lucifer deceived any of them. They simply do not have much free will. Lucifer was their boss and so they naturally went with him when he was reassigned as our adversary.

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I use the term “divine being” as opposed to “corrupt being”. Jesus is the greatest servant of God, do you consider Him to have free will? All of the divine angels are servants, yes, but they do this freely.

So is matter all corrupt or do you also worship animals as divine beings?

NO! Jesus is God! Besides, the epistle to the Hebrews makes a stark contrast between Jesus and the angels: the angels being nothing more than ministering servants and Jesus the Son and in that the first of many brethren, for we are promised adoption as sons also.

God is omnipotent which is considerably more than mere freedom of will. Where we must be clear that a our free will is not a freedom to make everything what we desire but only to choose our responses, God’s freedom is complete – to do and be anything He chooses.

The angels are what they are made to be – nothing more. We are the ones who learn and grow, always becoming more than what we were, participants in our own creation. So for “a little while” we are less than the angels and they with vast knowledge and power may seem like gods to us. But it is we and not them who are made in the image of God for our infinite potentiality, the mirror of God’s infinite actuality, is what makes possible an everlasting parent-child relationship which we name “eternal life.”

By definition, all matter is corrupt since it is not eternal, but temporal. Divine beings are not material.

But you seem to be getting off track of the topic of this thread. You named God as the only paranormal entity that you believe in. The Bible warns us speaking with the dead, do you believe in the dead?

Incorrect. I never said any such thing. I only said that God was the only one I had any experience with… AND the only one I cared to have any experience of.

Huh??? You are not making any sense. What is this? Shall I repeat what I said once again?

I haven’t had any experience with ghosts, demons, angels, fairies, djinn or UFOs – nor do I have any desire for such experiences. God is the only spiritual being I have cared to have a relationship with. But I do not believe in making my experiences the limits of reality itself.

You are badly mistaken. Jesus is God:

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

That means Jesus is uncreated, everlasting, and, without his sustaining power, nothing would continue to exist. The only being that applies to is God.

He also said, reinforcing the above,

…before Abraham was born, I am!

This certifies it even more:

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

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What @Shawn_Murphy is promoting is very like Gnosticism and very unbiblical, even though he purports to use the Bible as an authority.

He usually names Origen as the inspiration of much of his thinking. But in that I think he uses the fact that a lot of Origen’s work was ordered burned as a means to project whatever He wants onto Origen. It is known that Origen taught the pre-existence of souls (to which I am very opposed) and a version of universalism (which I am not in favor of either). In any case, Origen was a considerable source of controversy long after his death. Often is was unclear whether the controversial ideas were from Origen himself or simply attributed to him by later enthusiasts.

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I’m sorry but this screams of Gnosticism. Material creation is as equally good as spiritual creation.
The woes of the world are not because we are trapped in material meat bags that need liberation, but we are in a spiritual condition that separates us from God. In fact, the issue is more spiritual then material.

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In my study if church history Origen seems to be a two-faced scape goat in a lot of things, both good and bad, the poor fellow has been yo-yoed as a saint and heretic twice.