Origin of Covid — Following the Clues

Disease can ravage wild animal populations, including both zoonotic diseases (e.g. rabies) and non-zoonotic diseases (e.g. white-nose syndrome in bats ). And read Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer to learn about diseases caused by parasites.

Can you clarify statistically? In my understanding, wild animals die much earlier than domestic ones. There are awful diseases out there–some of them that Darwin was repulsed by. Thanks.

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if your leg was suffering from an irritant, such as a toxin, stress reaction (which produces cortisol; interestingly this is essentially an immunosuppressant, like dexamethasone) may have really cured it. It sounds like you had a frightening response. I am sorry. Sometimes, though, we docs do make a mistake and talk too loudly near patients, and it is notorious that patients mistake who we are talking about when that occurs. It is important to be as forthright as possible, right away, to keep the patient aware of their condition and allow them the right options for decisions.

Most people do get better from infections without antibiotics–which is why we are re thinking use of antibiotics for strep and ear infections, etc in some countries (though I can’t stomach that with strep yet) Antibiotics have been game changers for many things, including saving many lives with cellulitis (“blood poisoning” being the old word for septicaemia), and pneumonia.

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Yes, it was a horrible experience and one I can’t forget. Still it taught me a lesson that has helped me since.

The doctor and his colleague were in the corridor. I had crept behind the door to hear them. But it was good that I heard them because it made me realize the real danger was in my leg. But you are absolutely right, it is important to keep the patient aware. If the doctor had told me then i would have had the same reaction and got better that way. So yes, he should have spoken up. Maybe he was very worried. He was a good doctor.

I think the antibiotics have been a very good finding for medicine, yes, a game changer and they have saved many lives. It is important that we don’t over use them though.

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I don’t have any statistics, but I can say living in a rainforest for more than twenty years now and with a large number of birds and other wild life coming onto my property and into my house, Everything from birds of many sorts, to goannas, snakes, kangaroos, wallabies, frogs, toads, possums, bandicoot, rats, mice, lizards large and small, geckos and many more.

I have only ever seen one dead animal that my dog partly ate (probably a rat) and one turkey that looked sick and then died about half an hour or so later, after I went down to see if I could do anything for it. I don’t know if it had an infection. It could have suffered some injury.

What was interesting is that the male turkey, no doubt whose female it was, kept an eye on it and having checked it several times after it lay on the ground, probably to make sure it was dead, it moved to bury it.

Another male turkey came to interfere and they had an altercation. When it finished dealing with the intruder and the argument was over, the turkey continued to bury the dead under a pile of dead leaves and soil and small stones. It kicked these onto the dead body for nearly 20 mins to get it well covered. And it kept checking on how well it was covered. None of the other turkeys approached the area, even though it was part of their feeding area. None scratched the pile.

There are no doubt some awful diseases but how prevalent are they. I would say that wild animals most likely would become infected and suffer if they are stressed for some reason and humans are possibly the worst offenders where stress is concerned. Also wild animals would possibly die younger than domestic animals because they are all prey to other animals.

See my reply to @Randy. I live in a rainforest with a huge number of animals coming every day because many of them I feed. And I have only seen one dead one and one die in over twenty years.

They must have long lifespans since of course they would die right in front of you.

Why would they be immune to the virus?

The excessive inflammation is caused by the virus.

Again, this is due to inflammation caused by the virus.

How do you explain animals dying from viral and bacterial infections in controlled experiments?

Sure…

https://www.immunology.org/public-information/bitesized-immunology/pathogens-and-disease/immune-responses-viruses

https://www.nature.com/articles/nri2802

Haven’t you heard of Ebola? Or HIV?

Do you think that is science?

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I love stories from your rainforest :). I agree that predation is higher in the wild. However, regarding illness, here is an interesting review of illness in the wild: Diseases in nature — Animal Ethics (animal-ethics.org)

I remember reading an account of an outbreak of an infectious eye disease in the Rocky Mountains that blinded bighorn sheep or mountain goats (I forgot which). It was a type of chlamydiosis, I believe. At any rate, there was an ethical question of whether natural resource officials should vaccinate them to save them, or allow a large portion of the animals to suffer and die (most by falling to their deaths). It was decided to not interfere in nature. That is a tough one.

I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

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Meanwhile, back at the ranch, reports are coming out that Wuhan lab workers may have gotten sick with Covid like symptoms a month or so before the previously first reported cases. Make you think, though we may never know for sure.

Yes, but that’s also flu season, I think–so who knows? :slight_smile: sorry for diverting from the subject so far!

Funny how animals don’t carry signs proclaiming that they are carrying a large parasite load.

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I lost a puppy to distemper when I was in seventh grade. It broke my heart. There were several dogs in the area that had had it. He also had had roundworms. (His name was Chip. :grin:)

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He wasn’t vaccinated?

This was a long time ago, ca. 1960, before the vaccine was standard procedure.

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That’s sad. Distemper can also ravage populations wild canids.

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Distemper is extremely contagious–if a vet clinic has a case of distemper, the animal is isolated immediately.

Here’s more information on wildlife diseases, including distemper, from Cornell Wildlife Health Lab

I think where practical and possible we should intervene and give vaccinations, even antibiotics/ antivirals to wild animals if they are sick and possibly also as preventative treatments. The reason is because we humans, for the most part those who go hunting wild life are massively harmful to wildlife. So we should try to at least make some effort to benefit them. I think hunting should be illegal and anyone caught hunting should be shot on sight. However there are also other problems. In Australia many, if not most of the bushfire that cause heavy losses to wildlife are deliberately lit, often for fun by someone inhumane. I wouldn’t spare them either.

So yes, we should intervene since we create some of the major hazards to wildlife. We need to do something good for them.

So … do you think we should shoot everybody who thinks guns should be used to solved problems? If so, I can sympathize. :wink:

On a serious note; I think it is interesting that it was the wild-game hunters of several generations ago (think Teddy Roosevelt - and his creation of our National Parks here in the U.S.) who were the environmentalists. They cared for the animals and ecology and wanted to see it preserved. Something has happened since then to seemingly divorce those two personalities, at least in public perception; though I suspect that there are still a lot more ecology-minded hunters than what they are given credit for.

Who is “anyone who thinks guns should be used to solved problems”… police??? I am talking about people who go and kill wild animals for fun.

For instance there was a guy I knew, who went hunting birds in New Zealand when there was a hunting season. He came back one year with a picture taken of himself next to a pile of dead birds almost high height. This got my back up. I set directives to the Universe to bring him down.

Some time later, I can’t recall how long, I was talking to someone who knew him. I don’t recall the conversation but I mentioned something he told me. This fellow suddenly jumped back and said “who told you that?” As I realized later they were both inhumane and the hunter was shooting his mouth off about things that these people of the sub-culture don’t admit too. I told him who told me. Next thing I hear the hunter died suddenly, no doubt got cleaned up like my late husband for talking. And let’s face it talking to the enemy… me. But anyway they can be stopped.

From what I read in this article: TEDDY ROOSEVELT – A True Hunter Conservationist – Libra Lionheart It appears that Roosevelt was a conservationist and perhaps it was more a part of his time that he was a hunter too. However as the article shows he didn’t hunt indiscriminately. However the hunters of today are a whole different kettle of fish. Hunting for food still happens but in very few places in the world. Those that go hunting don’t need to hunt. To continue this practice we end up with a dead planet to live in. Even the oceans and seas are over fished. Where are we headed?