Okay so first off, lets go over why we no longer follow the OT laws. There are two main reasons, the OT commandments were part of the Mosaic covenant whereas we are under the Christian covenant (in other words, we follow the argreement made between us and Christ) and because the OT law wasn’t the perfect and final law. Passages like Matthew 19:7-8, 1 Samuel 8, and Numbers 27:1-11 imply that God allowed revisions, additions, and comprimises to the law in order to get Israel to a better place than they were prior. Essentially, the law was meant to be a temperary solution until they were ready for the final law (read Galations). Now, for the Christian covenant, Jesus stated in Matthew 22:36-40 that the entire law is summarized in the commandments “Love the Lord thy God with all you heart, soul, and mind” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. The way I see it, these are the commandments christians are called to live by. But if you wanted more specifics, Christy’s advice about finding the reasons behind the laws and applying it to our modern day situations seemed like pretty solid advice.
This can be difficult, especially for those of us who are natural rule followers. On the one hand it’s very important to be consistent and to take scripture seriously. On the other hand, I know my own pharisaical tendencies to just follow a “letter of the law,” and if I can just nail down exactly what that means to all people in all times, it will make me feel more righteous than it would otherwise.
I agree with Christy that “women in ministry” is a tricky topic in the NT. The same goes for marriage. In 1 Peter 2, Paul tells slaves to obey their masters, even harsh ones. It’s easy enough to say that’s not relevant for us today because slavery has been abolished in our country. But then in the next chapter he tells wives to submit to their husbands. Is this still relevant since marriage hasn’t been abolished? Should any consideration be made for the fact that marriage tends to follow a very different process in a very different social setting as when this book was written? Those who insist on reading everything at face value will have to grapple with the similarities that these two subjects seem to have here (well, and so will the rest of us). Like with slavery, the larger, broader context of scripture, especially the gospel Jesus preached, is moving in the direction of “freedom for the prisoners.” That plus the commands of love would lead me to be careful not to try and topple such broad principles with a prooftext.
But you’re right… it’s not easy. That’s probably one reason why there are so many denominations.
How do we know if we are loving God or not?
The entire law is summarized in those two commandments.
And that is the issue, I wish and desire to take Scripture seriously as the Word of God, and since my prodigal son event took place I have been serious in trying to follow the Bible and apply it seriously to my life. I have been following the advice of what others and agree with what @Jay313 said,
We have had a long discussion of this over at Unhitching the OT from the NT. If you have an answer to the question, maybe you should post it over there. (No one has been willing to answer it so far.)
I thought it was a rhetorical question. It’s really a two-parter, anyway. I have to know what “loving God” is before I can know whether I’m doing it or not. So, if you’re asking what “loving God” means, I find the answer in John 14. If someone wants to know whether they actually are “loving God,” I would point them to 1 John for self-examination.
Good answer. The point is, there remain do’s and don’ts, rules to examine and measure ourselves by. Unhitchers typically maintain that there are no rules.
Yet, one can follow a list of rules perfectly and entirely lack love. As Paul said of his former life: “in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.”
No argument with that. But if we convince ourselves that we are loving God and yet are being profane, for instance, we better recognize that we aren’t.
And maybe someone else should ask us, as well.
I will have to agree with you on that. A relationship with God should produce some type of change. As a person who would somewhat ascribe to the Wesleyan-Holiness understanding of living, a changed life should at least be pursued, though its not dependent on salvation, it should be a lifestyle change any Christ follower should at least pursue and this change is brought out by the Holy Spirit when we surrender to His leanings. That’s how I understand the issue.
Profane in the sense of using profanity? That’s mostly cultural and generational – like Baptists and dancin’ – and that’s a whole 'nother thread.
Just as an example, I’ve known people rescued from alcoholism and drugs. Their lifestyle is completely changed … and most cuss like sailors. If you didn’t know the change the Lord had brought about in their lives and just met them on the street, how would you view them?
Guilty as charged here. I blame my farther for my foul mouth 
I refuse the idea of “perfectionism” and don’t believe that any of us will be “perfect” but God’s grace is able to hold us and help us live a Godly life. Though it may not be a “perfect” Godly life, there never really is a 100% Godly life anyone has lived to my knowledge and hit my up if you know someone who has lol but God’s grace is able to see past our hiccups and take us in as we are. But we aren’t left in how we are, but over time in our life we are changed and made ever so slowly to be Christ like.
Well put. I went through a period of my life when I felt God calling me to lead a sinless life, to the best of my ability. I honestly put forth my best efforts. The most important thing I learned was that it was impossible, and it drew me no closer to God. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I throw things into a “weightier” or a “lesser” basket. The weightier things are those that deal with justice, mercy, and faithfulness. In other words, the things having to do with our relationships with the Lord and with others. The lesser things are, well, everything else. I try to leave those between the Holy Spirit and the individual conscience. Not always successfully! haha
How about blasphemy. We are not loving God or Jesus if we are profaning either name. And then there’s this, in the New Testament:
That reads like a rule to me. What is immoral is failure to love, and we are given standards to gauge ourselves by.
He still does*, but it is not accomplished by focusing on ourselves and on our behavior. But we need to understand what is loving and what is not, and if our hearts are tender and focused heavenward, we will recognize when we fail, be repentant and ask for help, after the manner of the father in Mark 9:24.
I don’t know how many times I had read through Psalm 18:1** before I realized I had not owned it for myself. (I had been a Christian for decades.) When I finally did, at first my prayer was, “Do I love you, Lord? Help me to love you.” It wasn’t too long before it was, and still is, “I love you, Lord. Help me to love you more.”
*1 Peter 1:16 The context about being like a child is significant, and so is the OT reference.
**Let’s not unhitch that verse from the New Testament, please.
Okay. That’s why I asked what you meant. But we still might quibble over what constitutes blasphemy. I also would point out that we are not loving God or Jesus as we should whenever we commit sin. The fact that a person is momentarily caught up in a sinful act doesn’t necessarily mean their love for Christ has disappeared. It’s not an all-or-nothing affair.
Yes, it does. I never said there are no rules. I said the “weightier” commands are those that involve justice, mercy, and faithfulness. Christ gave us rules in those areas (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount), but more importantly, he gave us an example to follow. People will always find loopholes in a rule-based ethic. The story of the Good Samaritan makes that plain. Love your neighbor. “And who is my neighbor?” As you know, the story ends with “Go and do likewise.”
Yes, that was my point. I just didn’t explain very well. I found the attempt was impossible, and it drew me no closer to God because I was focused on the externals of performance.
When I began the journey of repairing my relationship with God, the guidance I received focused on two things: forgiveness and gratitude.
I was very keen in the beginning to focus on hidden knowledge, sacred rituals, and groups of chosen people. Much to my initial annoyance, I was told to ignore all the ancient teachings (which seemed so glamorous and exciting!) and work hard every day to understand what forgiveness and gratitude mean from God’s point of view, not from the usual human point of view.
It took me a bit over a year of working every day to begin to understand these two practices originally taught by Jesus.
What I didn’t know then (but later came to understand when I was encouraged repeatedly to learn more about neuroscience) was that these two practices – forgiveness and gratitude – will help the brain rewire itself faster than any of the other practices recommended for Christians.
Sadly, when I entered Divinity school, I quickly realized that forgiveness and gratitude weren’t part of the curriculum and weren’t ever going to be. We were taught about prayer, liturgy, hymns, hospitality, contemplation, and so on. But never a word about forgiveness, though you can tell from the Gospel of Mark that forgiveness was one of Jesus’ chief concerns.
Thought I should also mention that throughout my journey, my guidance from God has never included the concepts of perfection or purity. The only thing close to perfection would be the idea of consistent effort – not consistent outcomes, but simply the effort to keep trying my best. Fortunately, I know that when I fall short of my best effort, God forgives me, picks me up, dusts me off, and encourages me to keep going. It’s God’s insistent forgiveness which has taught me human beings – made in God’s image – can also learn to forgive.