Oldest Language

Robert Alter (who, over recent decades, has done a complete translation of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) with close attention to linguistic detail) makes an interesting observation about the Book of Ruth, in his introduction to it in his “The Hebrew Bible”.

Chronologically, the events happen early. The Christian Old Testament, aligning with the Septuagint, places the book before Samuel. The opening is “in the days when judges ruled” (i.e. pre-Samuel). And the end of the book is about establishing Ruth and Boaz as being early, as great-grandparents of King David. That lures us down the avenue of “events are early; therefore the writing is early”. But Alter, in line with others, reckons that, despite its using the more classical style of earlier Hebrew, as though nearly contemporaneous with the events, there is much internal detail that places the writing of the book much later.

As an analogy, imagine if one of us here were to try to write something in the style of, say, Shakespeare or perhaps even slightly earlier. If we were good enough, we could make a passable attempt. But doubtless we would have inevitable lapses where we get something slightly wrong, such as syntactically, or using a more recent word.

For example, suppose you came across a text that said:

To be, or to not be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slugs and tank-shells of outrageous fortune,
Or to take tasers against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To pass: to sleep;

(Assume you don’t know the original text!) At first sight, it looks Shakespearian. But look closer, and the detail reveals it couldn’t be from his time, but must be later.

In other words, Ruth, like my faux-Shakespeare, has the appearance of being early, but there are tell-tale signs pointing to its having to be much later.

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If you like Middle English, you should check out Benjamin Britten’s “A Ceremony of Carols” for treble voices and harp. It’s in Middle English, except for the procession and recession, which are in Latin. It is widely performed at Christmastime. Our choirboys do it every year.

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Several biblical passage show clear evidence of experiencing some scribal updating over time (“they used to say “let us go to the seer””, “and it is there to this day”), so the language that our current versions are written in does not reliably indicate what the original Hebrew was like when a particular book was first written. The argument cited to start the thread ignores the likelihood that the names were translated in the course of transmission, quite apart from the question of where the names originated.

Looked this up… because such conclusions always seem to be rather threadbare in the evidence department…

While there is no figurative art associated with Neanderthals, personal ornaments such as pierced or grooved animal teeth and ivory rings have been found at the Châtelperronian sites of Saint-Césaire and Arcy-sur-Cure, France (Lévêque et al. 1993, Hublin et al. 1996). However, as mentioned above, the question remains of whether Neanderthals were the makers of the Châtelperronian (Bar-Yosef & Bordes 2010). If they were not, then there is no other evidence indicating that they made ornaments. Mineral pigments are often used in symbolic contexts among humans today, but their chemical properties make them useful in activities such as hide tanning and for tool-hafting (Hovers et al. 2003). There is evidence that Neanderthals used mineral pigments such as red ochre (hematite) and manganese dioxide at several sites in Europe, including Pech de l’Azé I, France (d’Errico 2003), and Cueva de los Aviones and Cueva Antón, Spain (Zilhao et al. 2009). However, we do not know whether this pigment use was symbolic or not. Neanderthals most likely buried their dead, as evidenced from the presence of articulated Neanderthal skeletons found in dozens of sites (Langley et al. 2008, Riel-Salvatore & Clark 2001) (Figure 3). While some have argued that these skeletons were preserved by natural causes, such as cave roof collapses (Gargett 1989, 1999), rather than deliberately buried, there is general consensus that the completeness of the skeletons validates an interpretation of deliberate burial (Belfer-Cohen & Hovers 1992, d’Errico 2003). The lack of clear grave goods associated with these burials, however, lends doubt to the issue of whether these are symbolic burials, although they do indicate caring for the deceased beyond what is seen in non-human primates (Chase & Dibble 1987). The suggestion that Neanderthals at Shanidar Cave, Iraq, were buried with flowers has never been substantiated. While flower pollen was found in sediments near the burials, it could have been introduced by rodents such as the Persion Jird, which is known to gather flowers and bring them back to its burrow (Sommer 1999). In sum, there is evidence to suggest that Neanderthals had some level of symbolic thought.

I guess dogs and elephants have some level of symbolic thought because they bury their dead also and even do art as well. Along with language, human capabilities have been developing over a very long period of time – no doubt about that. But I think some caution concerning the rather threadbare nature of the evidence for many claims like this is very much needed. Personally, I think the Neanderthals were not very different than other humans – probably where we got red hair from. But I think some of the changes which came later with civilization is frequently underestimated. Even language capabilities have changed more greatly over the last few millennia than most people are aware.

  1. Neither dogs nor elephants bury their dead. Dogs don’t really do art but they can be taught tricks.

Where did you get your information about Neandertals?

My information come from Scientific American February 2022, from an article called
Neandertals Like Us by David W. Frayer (and one other author with too many accents in the name for me to type!)

Do you even understand the difference between information and conclusions. I don’t parrot conclusions. I come to my own conclusions. Are you a paleontologist (or biologist)? Even if you were, it STILL doesn’t mean I would agree with your conclusions.

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Of course I understand the difference. You should note that I said Neandertals probably had language. That was based on the article I mentioned. I got my information from the latest Scientific American. What is wrong with that?

What language capabilities have changed over the last few millennia?

What is your evidence for dogs burying their dead? We find dogs and other animals interred with humans but we think that humans did the burying. And elephants!!! How would an elephant bury a dead elephant?

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I still can’t say shibboleth or roll my r’s. :grin:

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When dogs bury their dead they read from the Bark of Common Prayer

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Do they sing, “Howly, Howly, Howly”?

By the way, speaking of old languages, I have no insight to speak of, but enjoy the sound of reading Old English aloud in Beowulf
Beowulf: The Epic in Performance - Benjamin Bagby, voice and medieval harp - YouTube

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My dogs are ordained-- they wear collars. Like they say, “The Lord is my German Shepherd”

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Spooner would disagree. “The Lord is a shoving leopard.”

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