Ok, what am I missing here?

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

@Joshua_Groves

If this is true, then Jesus’s life could just be another metaphor,

Metaphor is a feature of human cognition and communication. How would Jesus’ life be a metaphor? There are clear extra-biblical references to Jesus of Nazareth as a historical figure. Only kooky Jesus mythicists deny that the Gospels were based on the life and teaching of a historical figure. No such corroborating historical account exists for Adam or Noah or Jonah, so it makes sense to wonder if the literary genre of the accounts of their lives and actions are intended to be read as objective historical accounts, or as narratives whose primary intent is communicating theological truth.

@Joshua_Groves

because all of my experience with evolutionary doctrine tells me that it would take an " irresponsible, evil, or uncaring" god to create a world where animals must kill each other to survive, and then call it “very good.”

So you are holding to the belief that tigers were created herbivores by God and somehow magically “sin” made them into carnivores?

@Joshua_Groves

Paul says the whole creation “groans” because of man’s sin.

The metaphor there is childbirth. The labor pains, groans, and travail of childbirth bring about life. The pain is redemptive and part of the ongoing process of regeneration. So are the “painful” natural cycles. The earth cannot flourish and regenerate without death. We had an interesting discussion with @jasonbourne4 bout this on this thread, which was linked to a nice essay about what the groaning of creation entailed. I think BioLogos is going to do a series of articles soon on this topic of the redemption of creation, so stay tuned.

@Joshua_Groves

It is saying young earth creation has no “science” or “evidence” to back it up,

I think if you took a year to seriously investigate the evidence, and did not rely on YEC resources to tell you what scientists say about evolution and an ancient earth, you would find this position hard to hold forever. It was evidence for evolution and lack of evidence for a young earth and a global flood that convinced most people on this site to change their mind. Many of us did not start out life accepting the evolutionary model or believing the earth was old.

@Joshua_Groves

This is like saying that Charles Dickens’s Tale of Two Cities is a manuscript of Herodotus’s work because they both have similar line spacing. The explanation would be that over the centuries there have been so many mistakes that eventually the ancient document turned into this very well written fictional story about people in paris and London. Ridiculous.

Why do you think it is logical to compare manuscripts which must be produced by humans to living organisms that reproduce and pass on genetic information to their offspring. It is ridiculous because the analogy doesn’t work at any level.

@Joshua_Groves

You see, there just happens to have been a worldwide flood as recorded by the Holy Bible, which would have eradicated all evidence of an old earth whatsoever.

Why do you posit this? Would it have broken all the laws of nature? How can rocks that can be dated by isotopes to millions of years of age be eradicated evidence?

@Joshua_Groves

The only way that one could say it wasn’t global is to say the “15 cubits over the tops of the mountains” verse is metaphorical.

Well, you could say the whole narrative meant to teach a theological lesson, not a historical one. It doesn’t have anything to do with metaphor.

@Joshua_Groves

I refuse to believe that any of the history recorded in the Bible is “metaphorical.”

@Joshua_Groves

I am not saying that there are no metaphorical portions of the Bible, but they are fewer and farther in between than ECs say.

I don’t think you understand what “metaphorical” means. It isn’t the opposite of historical. It doesn’t mean fiction. It means describing or understanding one thing in terms of another. The iron curtain and the cold war are metaphors used to describe and understand history. God describing Israel in terms of an adulturous wife is describing and understanding Israel’s idol worship and dependence on military alliances with foreign nations that eventually led to their historical exile. It doesn’t become fiction because the history and politics is described in metaphorical terms of marriage and adultery.

@Joshua_Groves

The only thing labs hace conclusively shown is how inaccurate all of the dating methods used are. These date you have given is the average of them all. Did you know that a fossilized cowboy’s foot, still in the boot, was dated to over 200 million years old? The dates evolutionists give for the age of the earth vary so much that is it hard to see why anyone would trust them. Only one of the dating methods gives us 4.5 billion years, the rest give us closer to 500 million.

You really need to stop trusting creationist propaganda to give you accurate scientific information. If you sincerely investigated radiometric dating, you would see how dishonest these creationist “facts” are.

@Joshua_Groves

There is something you must understand, there is no such thing as objective evidence. All evidence is interpreted.

Do you believe things can be accurately measured? If I measure something as four feet, two inches is any interpretation involved? If I count 92 rings on a tree and can repeatedly observe that one ring grows a year (i.e. it is a standardized measurement), is it an interpretation to say the tree is 92 years old?

[Timtofly (Tim)]

The dating methods are getting more precise. I think the issue is that if you have to have 10’s of thousands of samples to get your result, you are overlooking the probability of how precise you still need to be, to prove your point. If one sample does not prove your point you are back to the thought process of polytheism instead of monotheism. Even the wiki article on dating points out there are only a few spots scattered around the Globe where you can get a 4+ billion year age. Thus proving that at one time allegedly the earth was here 4+ billion years ago. It was not around 13 billion years ago. That fits perfect with all ANE accounts except Genesis. It states that matter in the form of “water” was around called earth before the big bang. God would have to give this matter an age of 4 billion years, while in the next step give the rest of the universe an age of 13 billion years to make Genesis fit what we observe. So either God does not understand science, or God does not know what the first verses of Genesis would even mean. They do not fit in to any other ANE account as the other accounts correctly describe the solar system as being part of the greater milky way after a non-descript period of time.

The other part of the dating process is carbon dating does not work past 10,000 years and radiometric dating really is for ages in the millions of years. However a Flood or event described in Genesis would allow for precise Carbon dating and would interfere with radiometric dating.

The biggest hurdle is ice cores. Unless before the Flood and during the Flood, muliple layers do not match up like they would if things have remained constant for millions of years. Also the Hymalayas which are the tallest current Mountains are also dated the youngest. It is probable they were formed after the Flood even if they give an age of millions of years. The point is they do not overall have an age of billions of years meaning that nothing ever happened cataclysmically to them giving them the youngest age. If they actually happened because of the Flood, they were probably not that tall to begin with. As a point in fact, there really did not need to be any tall mountains before the Flood. There was no cataclysmic event between creation and the Flood. There was no interruption in the human or animal generational account. What we want to do to get Genesis to fit is to add or change the format to fit other ANE accounts so it lines up with the scientific evidence as we interpret it. This is done in lieu of the fact that God knew exactly what happened and gave us enough information so we would know it was different than all other ANE accounts. We also have to erase from memory and get people to stop accepting the Flood. We have to change it from memory to just a belief. We basically have to pick and choose metaphors that line up with the data. Of course God could have replaced life on earth thousands of times over billions of years. From the account, all those other times seemed to have been incorporated into one singularity called the Flood. Or God justly gave the earth and universe a chosen Age. Is justice given to prove someone is in the right, or to right a wrong? In the age of personal rights, it gets confusing on what justice actually is. God is capable of choosing specific justice, and blindly handing out justice on a broader scale. The question about justice and death in Genesis: Of course Adam and Eve did not die. That was the lie of our adversary to prove his rights. The “death” was not complete until the Flood. That was the justice that God gave to earth for Adam’s sin. Humans are being justly preserved in a lost state, on the merit of each personal decision until the current existence is completed. The fact of science is that the world will be swallowed up into a lake of fire known as a dying sun. God’s mercy is we are not supposed to wait for millions or billions of years for that to happen. Why would God make the earth groan for billions of years of birth pains, when God clearly pointed out that birth was simple without pain, until Adam sinned? The act of creation was simple, complete, mature, without a prolonged period of creation.

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

@Timtofly

There was no cataclysmic event between creation and the Flood.

So all the corroborating evidence for the Chicxulub asteroid? Never happened?

I hope people realize all these long posts where you assert these concordist views about Genesis and history or what ANE people thought are just your imaginative opinions. You aren’t bringing in scholarship or facts.

[pevaquark (Matthew Pevarnik)]

@Timtofly

The dating methods are getting more precise.

Indeed. Radiometric dating is quite reliable.

@Timtofly

I think the issue is that if you have to have 10’s of thousands of samples to get your result, you are overlooking the probability of how precise you still need to be, to prove your point.

What? Do you know how measurements are made on things? Here’s an example of taking measurements of the K-T boundary done by multiple independent labs from samples all over:

@Timtofly

Even the wiki article on dating points out there are only a few spots scattered around the Globe where you can get a 4+ billion year age.

Indeed. The Earth is a dynamic planet and what you measure is the age since the rock last melted.

@Timtofly

Thus proving that at one time allegedly the earth was here 4+ billion years ago. It was not around 13 billion years ago.

@Timtofly. Nobody thinks the Earth was made 13 billion years ago. That would be the measured age of the universe.

@Timtofly

God would have to give this matter an age of 4 billion years, while in the next step give the rest of the universe an age of 13 billion years to make Genesis fit what we observe.

That would be God created with the appearance of age and a false history. If that’s your position, fine, but don’t misunderstand or misrepresent actual measurements.

@Timtofly

The other part of the dating process is carbon dating does not work past 10,000 years

Past 30-50,000 years depending on what you are dating and in what condition the sample has been in.

@Timtofly

radiometric dating really is for ages in the millions of years

Wrong. You can radiometrically date Hezekiah’s tunnels for example which are just a few thousand years old.

@Timtofly

However a Flood or event described in Genesis would allow for precise Carbon dating and would interfere with radiometric dating.

Wrong again. What does this even mean? You should be greatly concerned that when we carbon date fossils, ALL fossils don’t give absolute ages between 3,000-6,000 years ago. So carbon dating falsifies your model as well.

@Timtofly

The biggest hurdle is ice cores. Unless before the Flood and during the Flood, muliple layers do not match up like they would if things have remained constant for millions of years.

Yeah, ice cores also falsify a global flood.

@Timtofly

Also the Hymalayas which are the tallest current Mountains are also dated the youngest. It is probable they were formed after the Flood even if they give an age of millions of years. The point is they do not overall have an age of billions of years meaning that nothing ever happened cataclysmically to them giving them the youngest age. If they actually happened because of the Flood, they were probably not that tall to begin with. As a point in fact, there really did not need to be any tall mountains before the Flood. There was no cataclysmic event between creation and the Flood. There was no interruption in the human or animal generational account.

What? Do you know about plate tectonics? You might like this short essay and learn some actual science:

When geology left solid ground: how mountains came to be | Aeon Essays

@Timtofly

We basically have to pick and choose metaphors that line up with the data.

That seems to be how you read the book of Nature. Pick and choose random ideas, match them together in random ways, and then talk about how it doesn’t add up to your interpretation of the book of Genesis.

[AMWolfe (Andrew M. Wolfe)]

@Joshua_Groves

all of my experience with evolutionary doctrine tells me that it would take an " irresponsible, evil, or uncaring" god to create a world where animals must kill each other to survive, and then call it “very good.” Death came about because of man’s sin. Paul says the whole creation “groans” because of man’s sin. (Please note that I used a lower case “g” because I am not talking about the real God.)

All of my experience with evolutionary evidence says that it would take a god who would be the world’s worst liar in order to create a world where overwhelming evidence from multiple independent scientific fields using completely different measures tested over 150+ years all dovetail to show a very precisely coordinated ancient history of the universe, when what he actually did was create the whole universe 6,000 years ago. This overwhelming evidence includes data not only from radiometric dating but also plate tectonics, the geographic distribution of the fossil record (biogeography), DNA evidence (genomics), various astronomical measures (cosmic background radiation, red and blue shifts, etc.), ice cores, tree rings, and on and on.

Please note that I used the lower-case “g” because I am most definitely not talking about the real God.

@Joshua_Groves

It is saying young earth creation has no “science” or “evidence” to back it up, which couldn’t be far from the truth.

I think you meant to say that it could not be further from the truth. Instead, you inadvertently spoke truly in saying that “the notion that young earth creationism has no science to back it up must be close to the truth.”

I also agree with much (but not all) of what @mitchellmckain and @christy have said in response to your post.

Andrew

[Edited for clarity.]

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Timtofly

The dating methods are getting more precise.

Indeed, that is the most irrefutable aspect of science. So much evidence from so many different angles allows for increasingly precise calculations. That makes it impossible for its conclusions to be simply mistaken and shows that there is a reality which it is all pointing to. This leaves only two options open to us: either that reality is exactly what it science discovers, or the reality is a conspiracy so vast it must be God Himself seeking to deceive us. So to be sure, science is not without faith. At the very least there is the faith that there is no such enormous supernatural deception. We believe that either God is rational, honest and well meaning or there is no god at all.

[jammycakes (James McKay)]

@Timtofly

I think the issue is that if you have to have 10’s of thousands of samples to get your result, you are overlooking the probability of how precise you still need to be, to prove your point. If one sample does not prove your point you are back to the thought process of polytheism instead of monotheism.

You’ve completely missed the point here Tim. The tens of thousands of samples aren’t about the age of the earth being difficult to pin down; they are about the scientific principle of reproducibility. And reproducibility has nothing whatsoever to do with polythesim. On the contrary, it stems from the Biblical principle that every matter should be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

In any case, if you could prove a point with just one sample, you would also be granting a free pass to astrology, homeopathy, feng shui, water divining, indigo children, the Loch Ness Monster, ancient aliens, reading tea leaves, and claims by tobacco companies that smoking is good for you.

[Timtofly (Tim)]

That would be the difference between theory and practice. Practice being the actual outcome predicted. On (going forward) an agreement between two or more witnesses fulfills the demand for authentication. When you are trying to recreate the past to unwittingly or purposely refute the being known as God why would you reference the principle set in place by God to refute God?

I agree that the rule to stone a false prophet (prediction) and the authority of two or three witnesses may have laid the ground work for the scientific method. I accept that regardless of the modern notion science and the church has always been at odds with one another.

If my refutation fails to point out the difference between interpretation and reality that is on me.

Deception has been the first excuse in the book since Adam claimed Eve deceived him. Did Eve decieve him is the million dollar question. I have no excuse for not noting and checking the up to date ability for humans to figure out they were alledgedly lied to about the history of the earth they live on. I do not think that creating a mature universe is an act of deception purposely in regards to the current time in history when faith in God would be at it’s lowest point.

So either the first chapter of Genesis is not the Word of God. God is outright lying and it is God’s Word. Or the third option there are so many gaps that the text should not make sense at all.

It also can be interpreted in as many ways as each person who reads it. Obviously whenever any particular set of humans think they have a handle on it, another set comes along with a totally different take. But to think that the truth lies in the authority and security of current scientific thought processes, does not seem particularly wise. Each person has to decide on their own volition.

As for dating methods I failed in pointing out their short comings as built into the nature of the methods themselves. I guess that was taken as being my own opinions as opposed to my inability to accurately convince anyone. It is easier to just remove the Flood as an obstacle and accuse me of coming up with my refutation as a personal opinion. I would assume most posters post their opinions, and unlike me misunderstand common knowledge and twist it to make a point. I do not claim to be an authority and the purveyor of some unknown truth to solve all the contradictions inherent in reconciling history.

If the readers do see that Genesis 1 is the actual beginning would be in contrast to Genesis just happening billions of years later, which way should it be interpreted, accepted, or at least believed?

[Bill_II]

@Timtofly

So either the first chapter of Genesis is not the Word of God. God is outright lying and it is God’s Word. Or the third option there are so many gaps that the text should not make sense at all.

Or a fourth option is Genesis is the Word of God that tells us there is a single God who created all of nature.

[Timtofly (Tim)]

That would be indicated in all ANE text as the very first primordial ocean, and would be an acceptable substitute for God and not offend any one’s senses of reality.

There is the point where no Scripture is of private interpretation unless of course there is only one person left who accepts God and God’s Word without any interpretation at all. The point being humans on their own have to choose between what the Bible is saying, even if it goes against our senses. I realize that the Bible has been subjected to criticism and broken down word by word and sifted through the scientific method. We cannot change the past. If studying the past changes the Bible, where does that leave us?

[jammycakes (James McKay)]

@Timtofly

When you are trying to recreate the past to unwittingly or purposely refute the being known as God why would you reference the principle set in place by God to refute God?

Tim, I’m not trying to refute God. The fact that the earth is billions of years old does not mean that God does not exist. Nor does it mean that Genesis 1 is wrong. It just means that you’ve misunderstood it.

@Timtofly

There is the point where no Scripture is of private interpretation unless of course there is only one person left who accepts God and God’s Word without any interpretation at all.

Actually, nobody reads Genesis 1 without any interpretation at all. Even Answers in Genesis interprets it when discussing, for example, where the light came from in the three days before the sun and the moon were created, or what the “expanse” in the sky was in Genesis 1:6.

Is the Raqiya‘ (‘Firmament’) a Solid Dome?

The fact is that Genesis 1 leaves room for multiple interpretations on the age of the earth. Physical evidence from radiometric dating and other techniques, on the other hand, does not.

@Timtofly

As for dating methods I failed in pointing out their short comings as built into the nature of the methods themselves. I guess that was taken as being my own opinions as opposed to my inability to accurately convince anyone.

No, it’s simply that you’re demonstrating a lack of understanding of how they actually work. I’d suggest you read up on the subject first. Start here – this article was written by a Christian who works professionally in the field:

• Radiometric Dating: a Christian Perspective

Don’t just skim it. Read it carefully. Make sure you have correctly understood the key points he makes and why he makes them. Because until you actually understand what scientists do in reality, you are simply not in a position to be able to respond to them coherently.

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

@Marshall

These accounts disagree in the literal picture of creation they present. They use different time frames. But are we supposed to simply piece them all together to arrive at the facts of how and when?

lol. I like your analogies, but I don’t agree. God creates and I don’t really see the difference. God pretty much had to speak light into existence and everything until man as there was no “dirt” to make any living things from. I get that there are people these days that are trying to consolidate Darwinian evolution with the Bible and the Christian doctrine. This is very dangerous. But laying that all aside the theory itself is according to some molecular biologist not only false, but it is isn’t even a valid scientific theory. Have you researched any of the scientists that do not think Darwinian evolution is impossible?

I am also aware that in the original language the bible is not talking about a lite4ral 6 24 hour periods. But I think you will find that the so-called “theory” will soon byte tha dust and more and more scientist are coming forward these days agree that it will.

You should check out David Berlinski as well.

Professor Exposes Impossibilities of Evolution

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

This is a quick video from Berlinski

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

@Sealkin

First of I wish to say that one can still be a faithful Christian while also still accepting evolution as a means that God made the universe. Many early church theologians and fathers took a non-literal view of Genesis while other did but not from the YEC point of view which is a mid-19th century creation.

I disagree and think it is dangerous. Genesis states that all living things were created from a “common material” which is supported by DNA evidence. All that aside, the theory of Darwinian evolution will (imo and that of many molecular biologists) go down in history as one of the biggest jokes ever played on humans. I suggest researching some of these biologists that can explain wht Darwinian evolution is not only a valid scientific theory, it isn’t even science. It is a philosophy. Jesus says that we can 'speak to" a mountain and it will “obey us”, so where do you draw the line when you start cherry picking scripture and labeling some literal and some not, other that parables that are meant to be allegorical, and the prose which are as well (like Psalms) ?

I also suggest this video from David Berlinski for a short n sweet answer to why Darwinian evolution is not science. https://youtu.be/dIOIlCQDNgg

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

@AMWolfe

All of my experience with evolutionary evidence says that it would take a god who would be the world’s worst liar in order to create a world where overwhelming evidence from multiple independent scientific fields using completely different measures tested over 150+ years all dovetail to show a very precisely coordinated ancient history of the universe, when what he actually did was create the whole universe 6,000 years ago. This overwhelming evidence includes data not only from radiometric dating but also plate tectonics, the geographic distribution of the fossil record (biogeography), DNA evidence (genomics), various astronomical measures (cosmic background radiation, red and blue shifts, etc.), ice cores, tree rings, and on and on.

Not all molecular biologist agree with you. In fact, some are saying it isn’t even science, it is a philosophy. Also, the fossil record is agreeably the biggest problem with the so-called “theory”, there are no actual transitional fossils. I do not wish to debate evolution other than to suggest researching the Scientist that do not agree that it is a valid theory, and according to them is has absolutely zero evidence supporting it and I agree. All the evidence is anecdotal. Also, the bible does not give an age for the earth nor does it infer one, and in the original text, the “days” in creation were not literal 24 hour periods. YEC is just an assumption.

[see Jonathan Wells video from prior post.]

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

Yes. This “explanation” requires faith. All of the evidence for evolution requires faith and it has never been observed. There are absolutely no actual transitional fossils that are “;in between species”…none…not one.

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

@Timtofly

If studying the past changes the Bible, where does that leave us?

It doesn’t change the bible lol

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

parables are aligorical and metaphorical, and you quoted Psalms, which is prose (songs), also aligorical. Nice try tho lol

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

@Bill_II

Then why mention his name? Particularly when he doesn’t agree with you.

He does agree with me. We never discussed evolution. Try reading that agin. I did not indicate that I talked to him about evolution.

[Truthseeker1 (Mark Kellam)]

@Joel_Duff

I don’t think you mean that all birds are one “kind”

Yes, I do. They are a different kind of animal than a frog or horse. They do not have to all stay the same color or shape and the fact that they adapt to environmental conditions creates variety, as does the mix breeding of the varieties that result from those mutations. They do NOT, however, give birth to anything that is not the same “kind” of an animal. Horses will reproduce horses. Always have. Always will. This is what is actually observable and what the fossil record also supports.