@Truthseeker1 ? Are you still here?
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Adding the word “false” to a phenomenon does not make it false, unless there is proof of motive to do so. Now “did it convince humans” may be proof of motive or just coincidence. If God knew from the Beginning that it would, is that motive enough?
If an omniscient being wanted people to have choice without any forced manipulation, lying to them and dececeiving them may be legitimate but not malicious.
I am not sure if living with the notion that God did everything to go against what I choose to believe is a very satisfactory notion.
Welcome to the forum. This debate is relatively insignificant in comparison to the saving grace Jesus has provided through his life, death and resurrection. The problem is however very important in that the perceived conflict of evolution and the Bible causes many people to reject faith and causes many people of faith to reject science. I am a biochemical engineer who has been studying the Bible for a number of years, with an approach that I was not going to let what I don’t understand get in the way of what I did understand. What I understand now is the Bible is the Word of God, to be taken literally. I have a fundamentalist view of the Bible.
Through my studies, one thing popped out at me that in Genesis and other books the genealogy leading to the Messiah was always given after the genealogies not leading to the Messiah. For example, Cain is given before Seth, Ismael is given before Jacob. This is consistent all the way through, with one exception, Adam. This led me to the conclusion that Genesis 1 and 2 are sequential, the creation of the Garden and Adam comes after the events of Genesis 1. I have documented this in a book, Genesis and Evolution, available on Amazon or a free PDF is available on the Peaceful Science website. I have found this to much more consistent with the rest of the Bible, a quick example is that the conflict with the creation sequence of Genesis 1 and the creation of Adam and the Garden immediately goes away. I have found no indication in scripture than the Garden creation was a local event.
I also go into detail in the book as to what is science and what is non-science. Science is executed using the scientific method, with data and conclusions being published in peer reviewed journals. The data behind the theory of evolution is staggering and it is about to explode as now you do not need a fossil to extract dan samples, they can be extracted from the dirt if there is confidence some had been there. I also go into detail on the dating methods in use, over 40 and how multiple dating methods are used to confirm data from each other.
I loved Dr.Collins books and I would recommend reading them, however the idea that Adam and Eve were “representative” I have found troubling. I believe as the Bible states Adam and Eve were directly created by God. Paul writings are very clear in that through one man sin and (spiritual) death has entered the world and through on man we have (spiritual) life.
I hope you have found the replies on this sight helpful, there are clearly a diversity of opinions which is what you need in a forum.
Tell your friends!
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I am quite sure it is not satisfactory. Though I would say “go against what I can see and measure…”
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I could be wrong, but free will does not necessarily mean original thought. I do not think that God had to create history. Where did that thought come from? Does history have anything to do with the act of creation? I think the biggest problem is trying to get an exact history, either through science or through the Biblical account.
The EC claim there was no Flood to get their historical evidence to work. The YEC group claim the Flood changed the dynamics. I do not think the claim, “there is no evidence of a Flood” is totally being honest. For one thing, floods are evidence of how we get fossil fuel to begin with.
To the literal fact that there is millions of years of history that need to be accounted for. As it stands the earth is no older than 4 billion+/- years old. So any dating done will be consistent if at creation the earth had that 4 billion age attribute. The current cosmology states the moon formed at a later date, but is also roughly the same age but was the result of a solar system event. This event would be history. From other ancient accounts it would indicate God did NOT create the arrangement of the earth and moon with this historic view. In fact the indication is that humans actually witnessed and lived through this event. In ANE text, the sun and moon were third and fourth generational phenomenon. So for a period of time in actual human history the sun and moon were not even prominent factors for those living on the earth. One point of History the Genesis account totally leaves out. The formation of the current state of the moon and earth and the spatial relationship both currently have with the sun. All Genesis says is that there are planetary objects created for the purpose of seasons, but not that such season were implemented at that point in history. Now even the Hebrews thought that there were 14 generations between Adam and Noah. I do not think that any one has recently taken into the account that at the time of the Flood, even the spatial relationship to the sun changed. This would seem to me a change in the actual measurement of time in regards to resolving the “history” the Bible seems to not account for.
We do have God claiming there would be a life expectancy change, which would not make sense unless there had been a Flood and a shift in the current lineup of planets. Another thing to take into account is the point that the current position does not bode well for the gigantic fossils found who seemed to have lived quite comfortably before the Flood. To me the miracle would be how could such a variety of life noted in the fossil record even exist if there was never a Flood and such a drastic change in the earth’s eco system. Now we would make the claim there have been many of these life changing events that the evidence proves and yet there seems to be a need to toss out the one that humans actually recorded.
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Boy! You have that a little backwards. The objective evidence works just fine by itself. There was no earth-wide flood. It just didn’t happen. Thus the question is whether we throw the Bible in the garbage can or we realize that people at the time had nothing like our conception of the world as a planet. Why should “the world” mean anything more than the Tigris and Euphrates rivers?
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Tim, I must say that I have no idea where your information is coming from, but it is so contrary to observed reality as I know it that I have difficulty understanding what you are talking about. While I doubt we will ever agree about any of this, would you please site the basis of your assertions, just to satisfy my curiosity?
First of I wish to say that one can still be a faithful Christian while also still accepting evolution as a means that God made the universe. Many early church theologians and fathers took a non-literal view of Genesis while other did but not from the YEC point of view which is a mid-19th century creation.
So what about the creation account of Genesis 2 then? If you read and compare Genesis 1 and 2 you will see that we have two different creation accounts. One with the earth starting off as a watery chaos as typical in a lot of ANE creation stories and Gen. 2 with the a barren, dry and dead earth. I have asked YECers to answer me on this and so far they have not, which bums me cause I want to see what their response would be. Anyway, if you can respond to if we are to take the creation account in Genesis literally then which one? Gen. 1 or Gen. 2? Thanks
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Real scholars understand that Genesis 1 (which really ends at 2:3) is the summary outline of creation, while Genesis 2 focuses on the creation of man and explains it in more detail. This recapitulation was typical for narratives of the Ancient Near East. As explained by Gleason Archer (1916–2004), Professor of Old Testament and Semitics at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Deerfield, Illinois:
[The] technique of recapitulation was widely practiced in ancient Semitic literature. The author would first introduce his account with a short statement summarizing the whole transaction, and then he would follow it up with a more detailed and circumstantial account when dealing with matters of special importance. [Archer, A Survey of Old Testament Introduction , p. 118, 1964.]
Differences between Genesis 1 and 2?
OK you have now had a YEC answer you on this.
By reading and re-reading several ANE accounts including the Enuma Elish and the Ugarit account.
@aarceng
I would like to clearify that before light there was no water. The abyss and deep are referring to space. Water is represented by the third part of the first triune god. God being nothingness, then earth, then water. But before there was earth and water the Word spoke into existence motion via the comand for there to be light. Without form and void means the earth had no form. It was not even round or flat. It was just matter without form. Water has form, so there was no water either.
If you dig down under almost every land mass there is plenty of fossil fuel. It takes water to lift and move the land above these deposits. Can you prove that there are no fossil fuels under ground?
Interesting, but the issue is that if this is a retailing then it seems a lot of stuff is out of order, why was the earth barren if plants were made before man and why does man come around and then animals, which is also out of order of Genesis 1:24-25? I should have been more specific when I said Gen. 2 as 1-3 are also a follow up of Gen.1 as you have said and it starts in 2:4. If this is a follow up then where in the timeline is this then? We seem in my opinion to be in a different environment were the earth has no vegetation before man while Genesis 1:11-12 in which it was the third day. Just minor details that i’m noticing that go in conflict with Gen 1 and Gen 2. Of course we can be as you said dealing with another narrative in the story but maybe in a different place that is barren and dead?
And geologists using the standard age of the earth have no trouble finding fossil fuel.
Sorry but this doesn’t make sense. While water may be the method that is used to bury fossil fuel it doesn’t “lift” the land. That is plate tectonics.
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In fact, the ability of geologists to find fossil fuel is a pretty conclusive demonstration that old-earth dating methods are, in fact, accurate.
In summary: they need to determine how old the deposits are in order – and what temperature they’ve been at – to tell whether they will be able to get them out of the ground. Too young, or too cold, and the plant material won’t have decomposed yet. Too old, or too hot, and it will have baked away into oblivion.
I’m yet to see a satisfactory YEC response to that article.
The following statement is sarcasm:
Thanks for clarifying what real scholars understand.
My post begins here:
I see that your post was taken from the CMI link at the bottom in its entirety which means it was their language they used. That certainly is one way to bolster confidence in your readers that they don’t have to worry about what other scholars say that contradict your reading because real scholars are all in agreement with the YEC interpretation.
Why would I want to do that? This is just more evidence of the very long age of the earth during which so many living creatures died in order to store all that energy from the sun in the form of fossil fuels. The fossil fuels by themselves make the earth at least 650 million years old.
Good afternoon. You seem to have veered off topic. The topic is Darwinian evolution and the Genesis account of creation and that they are not compatible when the biblical account is taken literally, and I did not say that none of the books or passages from the Bible are figurative or allegorical.
I am not understanding your reply, can you elaborate?
Thank you for the welcome. I agree. Semantics, ya gotta love that. If I may ask, how would the discussion differ from what it is now if the forum were a debate forum instead of a discussion forum? I see people posting their views on matters and people that do share those views and oppose them posting the reasons why they do not agree, so how would the dialog be different with the title change, and so are you as a moderator asking me to edit the post?
Nice to meet you. Mark here as well
Have you researched any of the molecular biologist and their reviews and papers published against the Darwinian theory, or in general considered checking into those scientist that oppose it even as a valid scientific theory? And I agree (if I have understood you correctly), reconcilliation of reality and the Christisn doctrine should be at the top of everyone’s list of priorities here.
Depends on your definition of the fixity of species. This is related to the definition of the word “kind”. Kind is an English word with an English definition.
kind1
/kīnd/
noun
- a group of people or things having similar characteristics.
Kind and species are interchangeable, such as birds, lizards, cats, dogs, are different kinds of animals just like a car is a different kind of mode of transportation than a bicycle.
By point two I am pointing out that out of one of the latest (or fairly recent) discoveries of the 20th century (DNA) the intelligence behind the Genesis account obviously knew this information thousands of years before we did, and that this same source went further (as an evidence) to mention that not only were all things created “as-is” to reproduce after their own kinds (or within their species without change of species whatsoever and without exception) from a common material (which DNA verifies thousands of years later) that all living things will return (or revert back to) that same common material. In case you have not noticed every living thing from plant to animal IS the physical composite makeup of the forest floor…dirt, which is also mentioned AS THIS MATERIAL WE WERE CREATED FROM. Just a coincidence?