You are saying that God guides through random changes? if they are random then they are not “designed” to do anything in particular, what God desires.
Roger A. Sawtelle.
I really do not understand why you need to look beyond the Big Bang to see “God’s intelligent and purposeful agency?” Who but could produce a “singularity” out of nothing?<
To posit ‘God’ is looking beyond the ‘Big Bang’ and alleged ‘singularity’. But how is this science?
Things can seem random from the human perspective, yet nonetheless be determined from God’s perspective.
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33
Scientists model events in quantum physics, meteorology, and genetic mutations as samples from probabilistic distributions. As far as the human eye can see, these stochastic scientific models are correct.
Beyond the range of the human eye, however, God’s guiding hand cannot be ruled out. We who believe God’s self-revelation in the Word (in both literary and human form) believe in God’s guiding hand.
Blessings,
Chris
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Why would God bother? To hide His tracks? To deny His involvement? His guiding hand? Sounds just like YEC. And healing claims. So, what did He guide that doesn’t show His hand? And why? How? When?
That is absolutely the wrong question to ask. This is not an ad hominem question.
No, I said that God guides through natural forces, that God by definition designed. You said that they are random, and therefore beyond God’s control… I would say that you are grossly underestimating God’s power and wisdom.
God chose to create human beings in God’s own image and God did, starting with relatively simple lifeforms and environment,. which have changed until today. God knows what God is doing. God does not need our advice or approval.
Since God is the logical extension of the Big Bang theory God is related to science as the Creator, even if this thought is not classified as science, but philosophy and theology.
Roger A. Sawtelle.
Since God is the logical extension of the Big Bang theory God is related to science as the Creator, even if this thought is not classified as science, but philosophy and theology.
You’re not wrong.
Yes, I agree that we can’t rule out God’s guiding hand. But the question is why would God choose to create by random processes? I don’t think this is the way God created the world. It has all the hallmarks of order and organization and design to me.
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Evolutionary creationism seems to be about God created but used evolutionary means, i.e., random mutations/ events and natural selection. So what are the “natural forces” that you talk of?
I am not saying that random is out of God’s control. I am saying that for there to be evolutionary creationism then God chose to make the events random. Why would God do that?
God created human being in his own image, but what does that mean? The Greek to my ears sounds more like God made human beings in the image God had in Mind. The only other way I could read this is that he created conscious being and then gave them a physical garb. Of course God doesn’t need any approval from us or anyone else.
The only way to answer that WHY question is to know the mind of God, which of course we can’t. My understanding of EC is God used a process that appears to be random to us but isn’t to Him.
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This is fair enough as our opinion. My opinion is that God created directly, not by any evolutionary theory means. Evolutionary creationism is trying to say that creation was by random events. Not as appearing to be but as is.
These are good questions, Klax. Here’s how I think about ultimate things:
Jesus of Nazareth was indeed resurrected from the dead approximately 2000 years ago. I consider the testimony of his disciples (men AND women) trustworthy. I have myself encountered His Spirit in a way I could not explain in an entirely rational way.
Because of this historical evidence and personal experience, I believe the Bible to be reliable as a record of God’s self-revelation. Since the Bible speaks of God’s guidance in the creation and sustainment of the universe and everything in it, I believe in God’s guidance.
I cannot justify my belief beyond that. There is no such thing as an irrefutable metaphysics or apologetics that I can use to demolish the arguments of anyone who disagrees with me.
That’s my testimony, in its simplest form.
You are using random processes every time you run a vacuum cleaner. (Or “every time you hoover,” if you speak a different English patois than I.)
Do you understand why this is true?
Best,
Chris
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Why bring the exceptional, unique, excessional category of Jesus in to it Chris? That has nothing to do with claims of intervention, of Design, of a Guiding Hand, of healing, apart from the incarnation and its first apostolic circle.
Jesus spoke of His ministry as a fulfillment of the Scriptures.
Those Scriptures include passages such as the early chapters of Genesis that describe God’s intention, purpose, will, and creative acts in bringing the universe and life itself to their present forms.
If I am to trust Jesus and His message, then, I also need to trust the message of the early chapters of Genesis. IMHO.
Best,
Chris
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Not exactly. A process that appears to use random events as seen by humans but is actually guided by God. Rain is a process that appears to be random but we know that God sends the rain when He so desires.
No. No process that is directed by God can be called truly random.
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Great article! I liked Jim’s main points—example #1 stood out the most to me. On a related note, something that seems super compelling to me is when two species share a feature, but said feature doesn’t really accomplish much in one species (i.e. has a vestigial feel to it). I think for example about goosebumps…they work great in cats, for instance, helping their fur stand on end whenever they’re scared (thus making them look bigger) or cold (thus helping them retain more body heat). But for humans? We still get goosebumps when we’re scared or cold, and sure enough they form at the base of our skin hair, but seems like any advantage to them has been lost since we aren’t covered in fur. So we have pretty much the exact same feature, but common descent seems to make much more sense of it than common design.
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I haven’t vacuumed for a while but when I did I moved the vacuum cleaner in a specific way as to collect the dust and rubbish of the floor in the quickest most efficient manner. And the same as I use the broom to sweep the floor. Not random.
That is my point. Only I am saying not random at all. The rain comes when the clouds have become condensed water and that happens by design because God designed the Universe and uses rules and laws to govern it. So we could say “as God desires” but that desires is in how God created the Universe and the earth and its surroundings specifically.
Your vacuuming did indeed involve the use of a phenomenon that scientists label as random. Do you want to enjoy the pleasure of figuring this puzzle out for yourself? If not, I would be happy to explain.
Best,
Chris
Please explain.