Need Help With A Debate I'm Having

So, science belongs to atheists now? That doesn’t seem quite fair.

Or maybe he is saying, “I can’t become a Christian because certain misguided Christians have convinced me of something based on a false dilemma fallacy.” In which case, it’s nice he has a brother who can disabuse him of his silly notions. People’s reasons for rejecting Christ should be about rejecting Christ, not rejecting scientific realities.

And as other people have pointed out, please don’t insinuate that most of the people on this thread are not authentic Christians because of their acceptance of science. That’s pretty grinchy.

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@Narnian

You can not let him define the terms of the discussion.

You know that God created the universe. Of course God used evolution to create humans and all other plants and animals. If he does not agree, that is his problem.

Then why don’t you try to involve him in a discussion of evolution or ecology or the Big Bang to demonstrate that you are not afraid to talk about science as a believer.

One advantage that we have a believers is we can talk about science, theology, philosophy, the arts and humanities, etc while materialists say that only science is meaningful.

Refuse to debate a false choice and change the4 subject hopefully that you can both talk about which you might be able to lead back to a more reasonable ground for discussion or at least is amicable. Avoid confrontation and do not be afraid to concede some points when appropriate.

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@Narnian:

Using Lynn’s logic, just ask him if he thinks God has to " POOF " rain clouds into existence? Or if God is allowed to use his other methods, like natural laws and evaporation?!

I was suggesting a motive for his behavior.

This guy @r_speir seems unlikely to be convinced that theistic evolution is valid. I do not know how to convince someone who laughs at your position. The BioLogos community is the most intellectual community I’ve engaged with. I’ve seen atheist forums. I’ve seen creationist forums. I’ve seen simply specific religious forums. All of them have their specific points, but usually belabored with bias. I’ve never seen as much intellect in a forum as I’ve seen the community of BioLogos, which I’ve benefited more from in my short time here than I have in any other discourse I’ve been on. The Disqus forum has such ignorant people, it’s hard to take them seriously, but on BioLogos, even the mythicists don’t seem outright weird here.

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If the question is, “Do I have to choose between believing in evolution and believing in god?” then the initial answer cannot be ‘yes’ or ‘no.’ The initial answer could only, in my opinion, be: “that depends on which god we’re talking about.”

There is no doubt that there are gods who are shown to be liars in the face of evidence for common ancestry and/or a very ancient earth and/or death before the “fall.” Most of these gods are then judged to be non-existent, since they were predefined as being unable to lie. There are other ways that evolution can contradict a god’s existence, but the point is that if your god’s existence is in any way dependent on evolution being false, then yes of course you have to choose between evolution and “god.” The way to keep your god from being threatened by evolution is to make him/her/it independent of whether the biosphere is ancient and interrrelated vs. brand-new and separately poofed into existence.

I was a bible-believing Christian for more than 25 years and never believed that God’s mode of creation (natural vs. supernatural, evolution or not) was even slightly relevant to whether he existed. And I think it’s safe to say that I had what is called “historical Christian theology” on my side. But all that means is this: the god I believed in was defined in such a way as to be independent of whether evolution was true. So the question for you is whether your god is defined in that way, or in some other way. And that’s not a question for your brother, nor is it an answer to his challenge. It’s a question for you, and only you can answer it for yourself.

Merry Christmas to you and to all on the forum tonight!

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@Narnian
If laughing at people would help, I would be laughing at those who claim “God can’t use evolution” as they must read the bible like rather naive children who think of God as a little man sitting by the riverbank making mudpie humans. Whilst the bible is written in a poetic style that allows children to understand things in such simplistic ways it is at the same time written so that a grown up can also use his intellect to understand the deeper meaning of such explanation. [content removed by moderator] However instead of laughing at them we have to pity them and treat them with love and care as we would do with those who are in need of mental support. Clearly they live in the delusion to know what God can and can’t do. Jammy is quite right to ask him or the likes of R_speir to explain why evolution would be outside God’s authority and contradicting his existence.
Those who claim to “own science” by calling it “our science” need even more care as the delusion is strong in them. Science is based on theology in as much that it’s central axiom is the acceptance of ultimate causality and that the ultimate reason of our material reality has bound it by laws that make it comprehensible to the human mind. As such science, whilst not “owned” requires the acceptance of the metaphysical elements of reality such as laws and logic that govern reality. Evolution like any other element of our physical reality is governed by such laws contained in it’s ultimate cause. The law that governs evolution is "the word of God, e.g. to love thy neighbour like thyselves. It requires to care for the other kinds like for one’s own kind. Any kind that favours its own over the system get’s eliminated by the system. Thus survival fitness is the ability to support your ecosystem, it’s really quite simple.

The demand to:

from a person who struggles to comprehend texts as complex as the bible is a joke, particularly if they insist on a God making mudpie humans based on the text in genesis,thus ruling out a more sophisticated approach used by God to create our species and reality as we know it.

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Fantastic reply: thank you!

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@marvin

Very interesting.

I sometimes forget that the belief in Universal Natural Law (or say, the Physicist’s View of the Cosmos) can look very much like a rival kind of metaphysics to some religionists.

I guess this can’t really be denied.

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It depends on exactly what his objection is, and exactly what he means by “evolution or God.” As others have well pointed out, God almost always uses all manner of “natural” events to achieve his ends, and if this is really his objection, I would just ask him to point out where the logical contradiction is.

However, my guess is, from discussing with numerous atheists myself, that his objection is more along the lines of, ‘If evolution/science/natural phenomena is a completely sufficient explanation for all things, then I have no need for the “God hypothesis”.’

To my understanding, there is nothing in theistic evolution itself that could answer this particular challenge. A theistic evolutionist, if I understand correctly, would view natural forces currently in operation as sufficient explanation for everything about us no less than would Richard Dawkins. Trust and belief in God is embraced for other reasons.

So if he is pushing for some evidence, something that makes rational belief in God a necessary part of his thinking, one still has to look for something that science as we have it cannot explain. I myself would start with the resurrection.

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Sometimes I cringe a bit myself when I do this, but the churchy answer is that you will never debate him into changing. Just love him and live life consistent with God’s love, pray, and wait for the Spirit to move him. I know you already know that, but have to put it out there.

In the meantime, it is worthwhile and interesting to advance the discussion as you are doing, hopefully showing him that you don’t have to check your brain at the door to enter into a relationship with God or a fellowship in church. It is interesting that atheistic false dichotomy and the YEC false dichotomy is the same, and for much the same reason. They both make it easy to justify the position taken, without really considering or thinking about it.

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@sfmatheson Hi Stephen: It is so easy to ‘take out of context’ part(s) of someone’s post that I would appreciate a little clarification of the two quotes above. The first was put in the past tense. Does it no longer hold true for you? (Just for the record, my vision of the Christian God does not depend so much on How humans were created, as it does on the WHY. So I think this forum has gone a little overboard with the minute details of the former.)
The second quote sounds as if God is merely a hypothesis, and we humans are free to define Him in any way that pleases us. I am almost sure that the interpretation of the second quote is NOT what you intended.
Al Leo

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Rain and Joseph’s brothers were mentioned; I might add the flood, Abraham’s promised child in old age, many of the plagues of Egypt, Pharaoh’s hardened heart, the feast of quail in the desert, various victories (and defeats) in Israel’s wars, David’s victory over Goliath, the drought in Israel during the days of Elijah, Rehoboam’s harsh policies.

But again, I’d advise asking him questions to ensure you truly understand the full and specific nature nature of his objection. I’ve further thought about your question, and am still inclined to doubt that his difficulty is as to whether God can or cannot “guide” or otherwise use or utilize natural processes to accomplish his purposes.

Most people I’ve discussed this with would not so object, this is not what they would mean by saying “God or Evolution”. Rather, it is simply that they think science has completely removed any need to believe in God. If blind, unguided natural processes can in fact explain every single phenomenon we find in this universe without exception, then they find no logically compelling reason to embrace belief in God rather than their atheistic belief. Belief in God becomes an appendage, something ancillary, something unnecessarily tacked-on. Everything we see in this universe is perfectly explicable by scientific means in the very same way that Dawkins and others suggest.

In other words, since science (at least in theory) can explain literally everything, then there is absolutely no evidence in this cosmos for the existence of God, no reason to posit his existence. Atheists thus view belief in God as a completely unnecessary belief entirely arbitrarily tacked on to a system that needs no further explanation. Kind of like Richard Dawkins’s quote:

“There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can’t prove that there aren’t any, so shouldn’t we be agnostic with respect to fairies?” Similarly, I imagine your brother views it this way. There may hypothetically be a God… but the world, as it exists, would look exactly the same whether or not Theistic Evolution is actually correct, or whether Richard Dawkins is correct. If this is so, the God is extraneous to their system. I’m guessing, at least, this is your brother’s point.

I really imagine this is his core issue. If you can, I’d encourage you to ask your brother if that is his core issue… if you find out, it would probably help folks here (not to mention yourself) better focus the discussion to most profit here.

Hi Al. I no longer believe in any god at all, hence the past tense. When I was a believer, I could never understand – and certainly could never worship – a god who was threatened by evolution.

Well, I don’t think ‘hypothesis’ is quite the right word there, but I consider it to be obvious that humans define their gods, and not the other way around. It’s not the case that each individual human dreams up a god “in any way that pleases”; on the contrary, it seems that the vast majority of humans inherit their gods they way they inherit microbiomes and languages. And similarly, these gods can be altered, multiplied, discarded, lost, and found, all under the influence of culture, emotion, and psychology. Sure, one can always claim that there is some One True God behind the cacophony, but I can’t find any good reason to believe that.

@Daniel_Fisher

Science can’t explain consciousness. They can explain the mind. They can explain neurons. But they can’t explain:

the ability to say “I think therefore I am”

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That’s not even close to what I wrote. What I actually wrote is that there are many gods,
and some of them are more ridiculous than others. Some gods are disproved by evolution.Those are among the most preposterous gods.[quote=“r_speir, post:40, topic:37506”]
Are you willing to offer further comments and clarification about your position?
[/quote]
I’ve written plenty around here. Are you willing to be honest about what I write?

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I asked if you are willing to be honest about what I write. The answer is no. Okay, then! Bye.

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