Mythological concepts of good and evil in a real world

This is a conclusion for which you haven’t provided any support, only your assertion that it is so. The line between Adam and Eve may fade into mythology the farther back it goes, especially once it is farther back than David and then past Moses (the authenticity of Abraham still being completely up in the air), but that does not make the entire genealogy mythology.

I add again: if you’re referring to the scriptures your assertion is just plain wrong – very little of the accounts are the right kind of literary type.
Calling all or even much of scripture “mythology” is the sort of thing that sprouted from the highly unscholarly work of [u]The Golden Bough[/] and its ilk that had more to do with sentiment than objective study.

2 Likes

Ah – I see the problem: mythology isn’t the only type of literature which does that.

Or, for that matter, which does this:

= - = + = - = = - = + = - =

If we use the book of Enoch to understand certain statements in the New Testament (e.g. Peter’s reference to spirits in prison) they didn’t die but were locked up where they have no ability to influence anything in Creation – but when judgment comes they will die.
Though it seems to me that being locked up unable to influence the world at all when once they managed to get people to worship them might just be worse punishment than dying, especially if they are able to watch events here!

An interesting question. The usual response is that angels were made to function/live without sin(ning), but that runs aground on the proposition that Lucifer for a third of the angels to follow him.

1 Like

I disagree with the OP on that for a different reason: there isn’t in Christianity any “cosmic struggle of good against evil” because evil has no eternal existence, it is a temporary phenomenon that has flared up for humans to deal with. It’s the same reason why saying that Satan and God are enemies; Satan is a created entity whose mere existence depends on God’s continuing to sustain his being! The battle is between Satan who resents us being in the image of God and all us humans (though briefly it was between Satan and Michael the archangel), which is part of the reason Christ was human – it was a human who defeated Satan. What we are living in is the sort of war that happens when the war is officially over and done but the message hasn’t reached the actual battlefield.

1 Like

That is well said. Myself, I don’t even see it as a clash of good and evil; more like the astonishing act of creating the possibility of beings with experience and real choice just does have intrinsic obstacles and I don’t think of God as having genie like powers to have everything His way especially since He is primarily loving and drawn to relationship rather than operating a puppet show.

Sure there is. It’s kind of the whole point of the Christus Victor model of atonement.

I see in the Christian story that God has created a good world and envisions it ruled by an ethic of peace, justice, and righteousness that allows all creatures to thrive and flourish and reach their potential. But oppositional forces (call it sin, or evil, or human tendencies toward depravity, whatever) thwart this vision and need to be overcome by grace and love.

Fair enough. For those who have deduced a logos from the mythos it is definitely different than for me. I don’t think God even wants to coerce atonement in any way that undermines ones free will. I see the sacred much as Rob does as intertwined in our very being* where He can inspire wonder and insight but He holds Himself back from running the show. We have a true but grossly unequal partnership in which that which is greater holds back for the lesser to grow and become what is possible even if that goes against the grain of the common sense of the secular world.

*In my view God is both immanent and transcendent in stars, rocks, plants, fish and people as the ground of all possibility. So the best place to find God -for one lacking a logos- is within where you will find He already knows you better than you know yourself. But there are no marching orders on a verbal level, no conclusions I need to find my way to.

But I may have made it sound as if I didn’t think evil was real. I do. But it arises because of our need to find our own way where God is not an active player in the world itself. We can easily go astray and are adept at not noticing and continuing to think well of ourselves no matter how far we go.

2 Likes

This is the classic problem with pan(en)theism – the inability to account for evil and thus encouraging the delusion that there is no evil and the willingness to disbelieve in any goodness either. It is not the first time I have encountered this mindset and it frankly gives me the creeps.

I have never bought the common Xtian rhetoric that making people think he doesn’t exist is one of the devil’s greatest tricks. For it seems to me, thinking there is no devil only means we must be responsible ourselves. BUT to get people to think there is no such thing as good or evil – that is devilish trick indeed!

Good and evil are not mythological. They abound throughout the world making a heaven or hell of the existence for those people who encounter them.

This is not to give support to the Zoroastrian notion of a dualism between the two (let alone a necessary one). While there is a positive role in the world for destructive forces of death and decay, this is not the same thing as evil. It the self-destructive nature of evil which is opposed to the very goodness of life itself, and in context of a community from which ones greatest advantages and well being is derived, destructive of the community is self-destructive as well.

No. Not exactly. I see much of the goodness of God in that He chose love and freedom over power and control. And I see considerable problems with turning to power and control as a solution to all problems. But refusing to welcome power and control can too often be an abdication of responsibility.

Imposing our own order on the universe is the fundamental nature of life itself. And yes this means cultures will tend to measure other cultures by their own standards. Remember it was never just Europeans doing this, for Europeans were frequently judged barbarians by other cultures as well.

Nevertheless, there is some truth in this. And it was often a measure I used in considering which Christian traditions to consider (and ultimately distinguishing Christianity from the cultural packaging.

But we should remember that other traditions can and have been quite evil: practicing cannibalism, human sacrifice, genocide, and torture of innocents (and yes, some of these are in the past of our own culture).

This is Rob’s way of dealing treating the culture of others with superiority rather than humility. I say so because I seen it Rob do this before. It is the easy answer – make no effort to understand and simply declare it to be meaningless. Rather he could say… this is meaningless within the context of his own framework of thought and feels compelled to draw the line there regarding the types of thinking he is willing to consider.

1 Like

But it’s not cosmic, it’s human. I only see a conflict as being cosmic if either side could win.

1 Like

I love Annika!

1 Like

I did say that mythology and literature which portrays principles in a drama rather than explaining them.

I find it strange that you disagree with the OP because you agree with me, that we are talking about a “created entity” but in your mind he’s real and God made him. And you say that Satan and Michael the archangel fought each other, and that “we are living in is the sort of war that happens when the war is officially over and done but the message hasn’t reached the actual battlefield.” All these statements are what I am talking about: The impression the church has given that has led to the entertainment industry spreading the impression that there is a cosmic battle going on, which is far more prevalent than theology.

I find it tiring when people criticise me in this prickly way, nitpicking instead of reading the intention. What I am saying is that in the past, human beings have portrayed the struggle in their own hearts as an external battle, but we started at some stage to look inwards, but this was discontinued and the imaginations of an external battle returned. The suggestion that evil is external makes people imagine they can do nothing but hope for external good. The truth is, we have the potential for both in our own minds and hearts.

I find this curious because elsewhere you wrote:

Can you explain what I am missing?

What a strange interpretation of what I was saying! You have obviously not really understood me and perhaps that is my fault, but others have, so that poses several questions.

If you mean by “account for evil” projecting it onto external entities, then I agree, I can’t do that, but I see the dichotomy of evil and good in the human minds and hearts as the internal struggle that mythology externalises. At the same time, I believe that love is an inherent quality of creation (divine) that comes inexplicably through human interaction, including interaction with other animals, who are often fascinatingly moved by human compassion in their lives.

Maybe look up some descriptions of the Christus Victor model. Some of them even use the word “cosmic.” Christ does battle with and defeats the forces of evil and Death, not just human nature.

It is these “forces” of evil that I am concerned we externalise, probably because we feel powerless against concentrated malevolence, even though it has human origins. The “battle” with death seems to be a mythological way of saying that Christ brings a life-force that has no end. Alexander Schmemann wrote thought-provokingly (quoted by Iain McGilchrist), “It seems to me that eternity might be not the stopping of time, but precisely its resurrection and gathering. The fragmentation of time, its division, is the fall of eternity. The thirst for solitude, peace, freedom, is … thirst for the transformation of time into what it should be – the receptacle, the chalice of eternity … There are two irreconcilable types of spirituality: one that strives to liberate man from time; the other that strives to liberate time. In genuine eternity, all is alive.”

2 Likes

Christus Victor is a rational interpretation but does not include everything told in the NT scriptures. A key problem in the interpretation seems to be that it lifts the role and strength of Devil and evil (unclean) spirits too much, to almost the level of God. It hints that God must pay ransoms to Devil or fight with evil to get the rule of the world. That is the reason why I do not see it as the main explanation of what happened at the crucifixion.

The fight with evil is not so even that we need to stress a battle between good and evil. The evil spirits have only as much power as God allows. Much of the evil we see rises from the heart (mind) of humans, rather than from the acts of evil spirits or Devil.

2 Likes

Yes your fault and that is why. I certainly don’t see Christianity as projecting good and evil onto external entities. God is the creator not the personification of goodness. I repudiate the notion that something is good simply because God commands it, God commands something because it is good. And I see the devil is mostly a scapegoat assigned this role because we chose to blame him for our mistake.

So that should get you past that portion of my response to the rest of what I wrote about other things you said and quoted.

But it also doesn’t change your essentially hostile and “superior” way of treating with Christianity. The creator is not mythological just because you don’t believe in a creator. And it also doesn’t really change my analysis that pan(en)theism has a problem with making a distinction between good and evil. There is nobody even doing things because they are good. There is only mixtures of good and evil in the world and in people, if even that – more likely there is only the subjective judgments according to how things are perceived to affect us personally. Maybe you can clear that up. Do you even believe in any absolutes with regards to good and evil or is it all relative?

1 Like
  • I like a well-written or well-performed or well-animated metaphorical myth, of some battle between good and evil–like Lewis’ Screwtape letters, Tales of Narnia, or The Space Trilogy, and Tolkien’s books, or J.K. Rowling’s Harry Potter Series and George R.R. Martin’s Game of Thrones collection. To be perfectly honest, the Christian Scripture pales in comparison, IMO.
  • Perhaps I’m mistaken, but didn’t Nietzsche take the world beyond good and evil, all the way to the will to power, which seemed to me to be the heart of the Game of Thrones.
  • So, I happen to be one of those guys Paul calls “most to be pitied”, a guy who believes that Jesus existed, that he was crucified, and that–much to the dismay of Muslims and the other Abrahamic faithful–he died, was resurrected, and ascended into heaven; and much to the amusement of non-shroudies, I believe that the Shroud of Turin either is the burial shroud of the Risen Christ or a durn good copy of what one shoul look like; and to the dismay of many Christians, I believe Jesus was nailed to the cross through his wrists and that angels don’t have wings; and I believe that the I that I am will live in some form after my sarx is cremated.
  • Now it so happens, that I also believe evil beings exist in the cosmos, beings commonly called devils or demons, i.e. malevolent angels, if you will, the kind described in Malachi Martin’s book “Hostage to the Devil” and in M. Scott Peck’s book “Glimpses of the Devil”, neither of which are best-selling fiction novels. And I have just one question for all of the incredibly well-informed folks around this forum, Christian or otherwise:
  • Do you know or have you ever met a bona-fide, verifiable ex-exorcist?
2 Likes

Truly a fantastic build up to a flawless delivery

1 Like

This is why I don’t consider it to be a “cosmic battle”: God is in total control of the victory which is not in doubt.
I suppose some might consider it to have been in doubt before the Incarnation, but I just don’t see that as viable. Christ’s plan was foolproof regardless of how much Satan contested it.

Indeed since the Incarnation we are in one sense back to the Garden in our present lives, where the Adversary tries to deceive us (and we often fall for it), so the battle is not between God and Satan or even between Christ and Satan but is between us and Satan – insofar as Satan is a personal foe at all, given that he is a finite created being. In terms of our battle, it is far more against the evil in us than anything, then against the evil in the world, and only remotely against Satan.

2 Likes

Is there anything in the NT that describes it this way?