Exactly! Something that puts me off about YEC, and intelligent design and all the other attempts to show that science really does prove God’s existence or the Bible’s authority or whatever, is that IMHO they actually reduce the concept of God to something they can package up. It’s like they can’t imagine a God beyond their own understanding, even though the Bible itself is pretty explicit about that, so they come up with rules they think He has to follow. They can’t truly marvel at His creation or explore it with wonder and curiosity. Instead they operate under the certainty that it can be explained in a few chapters of a book. The God I worship is bigger than that.
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RATE really was supposed to be the crown jewels of YEC science.
Up to that point, it was common for YECs to claim that their bad science, with its tiny samples and huge error bars, was only as bad as it was because they were underfunded compared to “evolutionists.” Given enough money, they would be able to get much better results that would blow deep geological time and evolution right out of the water.
After spending $1.25 million on RATE, they no longer have the luxury of that excuse. Then after having spent $100 million on the Ark Encounter, such a claim would just be patently ridiculous. Yet even with all that money, the best they can offer still consists of tiny samples with huge error bars. There are reasons why YEC science is as flaky as it is, but a lack of money is not one of them.
There is no such thing as “secular science.” There is only honest science, and lying.
Science is not about secularism. It is not about opposing God. It is about opposing sloppy thinking, falsehood, unjustified assertions, and resistance to critique. It is about equipping everyone – Christians as well as atheists – with tools and methods to fact-check what they are being told and to push back on people who are trying to pull the wool over their eyes. It does so by teaching us to adopt a rigorous, disciplined, consistent and evidence-based approach to understanding how things work and using that understanding to Get Things Done.
Yes, sometimes science uncovers facts that challenge certain views that we may have. But we need to be honest about that. Facts don’t cease to be facts just because you don’t like them, and denouncing them as “errant views” or “heresy” will just make you sound like some sort of reactionary. And to make passive-aggressive or hostile remarks about “secular science” is to attack people’s very ability to fact-check you and hold you accountable for the honesty and factual accuracy of your claims. Which is something that only cults, authoritarians, dictators and abusers do.
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I would suggest that to understand the significance of the theological problems with theistic evolution, one spends an hour listening to this…(i am not a Baptist btw)
For anyone who doesn’t want to spend an hour watching yet another LSDYEC video that just says exactly the same things as the million and one other LSDYEC videos that we’ve all seen, you can find a transcript here:
And here is a response by someone pointing out that he isn’t getting his facts straight:
Just glancing at the transcript, he doesn’t appear to be bringing anything new to the table, but only repeating the major LSDYEC talking points and misconceptions that we’ve all heard time and time again. For example, he knows what the scientific consensus on the age of the earth is, but he has a lot of serious misunderstandings about how the scientific consensus was reached. In particular, he believes that it all boils down to “uniformitarian assumptions.” This is simply not the case, as it ignores the huge body of research and the numerous cross-checks, testable predictions and practical applications that go into determining which “uniformitarian” assumptions can reasonably be challenged and to what extent, and which ones can not. This is something that every theologian needs to understand before attempting to address scientific subjects. You must address what real scientists do in reality and not an incorrect caricature of it. In other words, you need to know what you’re talking about.
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To some extent, it has to, just like every other reconstruction of anything in the past. You have to assume that physical constants do not wildly change, that words in texts do not arbitrarily change meaning, etc…
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Great and respectful critique of Mohler’s mistaken understanding. If Mohler can get this wrong, it is no wonder so many of us struggle. Thanks.
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Thanks for those links, @jammycakes! The response has a paragraph that touches on what I was trying to say in my earlier “God is bigger” comment:
In 2011 Mohler presented a splendid lecture at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia entitled “On the Other Side of Complexity: Christian Conviction in the Late Modern Age.” In it he quoted Oliver Wendell Holmes as saying, “I would not give a fig for the simplicity this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity.” That is, there is a naïve simplicity that wants to avoid complexity, that seeks to short-circuit discussions that might raise complicated questions about traditional interpretations. On the other hand, there is a simplicity that has taken the trouble to wrestle with the complexities of life and scholarship and has come out the other side with a deeper and richer understanding of the issues. It is my sense that in this particular case Mohler has settled for the “simplicity this side of complexity.”
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That is something YECs definitely have trouble with (although their unfounded biblical hyperliteralism would accuse us of the latter). Somehow they justify absolute non sequiturs in their thinking with respect to physical evidence, meanwhile denying scripture, as @jammycakes keeps pointing out and I with this:
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Alright, so I had a meeting this morning with the head pastor and it went really well! He was pleased that I had come forward and we had a great conversation. His beliefs and conclusions lined up well with mine regarding many different topics, including the age of the earth (he had read The Language of God and enjoyed it). He was receptive to the idea of a book study or discussion group (to sort of counterbalance the YEC geology field trips), and asked me to come up with some specific ideas about what that might look like.
(On that note: does anyone know why the three links (reading schedule, resources, and discussion questions) on the Language of God page go to the same PDF file? The document only addresses the suggested reading schedules, but I’m more interested in the discussion questions. Are those available anywhere?)
The pastor didn’t commit to anything with regard to the promotion of the trip series on the church website, so I guess I need to decide for myself if that ultimately represents a too-close-for-comfort association with AiG, or if the opportunity to present a different viewpoint through a church activity would alleviate those concerns.
Thanks again to everyone who replied, whether it was to give advice or challenge my assumptions. I’m confident that I’m approaching this the right way and I’m very optimistic – excited, actually – about what the future holds.
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That is a very positive outcome! I can’t predict what you’ll run into if you go on the trip, of course. (How long is it?) Could the pastor be going? That might make a big difference, to have some sympathetic support. I’m afraid of a rift developing, but you’re doing well so far!
Thanks! It’s a series of trips, and the pastor has already been on one. Despite disagreeing with the claims made by the tour company, he encouraged me to go on the trip if for no other reason than to have the credibility to be able to say “yes, I’ve seen the presentation and have come to different conclusions” to anyone convinced by the tour that YEC is valid.
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As far as ideas for a book study, something like The Manifold Beauty of Genesis One by Davidson seems intriguing to allow people to see the variety in interpretations without pushing any one view much;. Only downside, is that is a little pricey for a big group to all get a copy, but I see it does have discussion questions after each chapter.
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Thanks for the feedback and it’s good to know that you’ve had a positive response from your pastor. Pastors with no scientific training can be in a bit of a difficult position when it comes to subjects such as these, because they don’t always have the knowledge and experience necessary to figure out what to make of it all. The wise ones among them will just admit that they don’t know what they don’t know and leave it at that.
If he’s encouraging you to go on any of the trips, I’d recommend that as well as doing so, you take notes (and photographs as well if you can) while you’re on it. That way you can do some follow-up research afterwards to see how best to respond to them. Besides, taking notes is good scientific discipline.
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Great ideas. Thanks!
This unit study from the Integrate curriculum has some really good activities to examine how different Christians approach Scripture. It teaches about divine accommodation vs concordism, approaching Genesis 1 as literature and has some activities to bring home the idea that Genesis was written for a different audience than us.
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Depending on the congregation’s intellectual demographics (not speaking about IQ but sophistication, awareness, and interest), controversial issues should be approached differently. This is more complicated for large congregations and those with people who are philosophically minded. We should always be aware there are a significant number of believers that are comfortable with YEC or other inherited ideas about their faith. What it means to obey the Lord’s command to make disciples should guide the congregation’s leadership in approaching controversially issues or even unscientific issues. Part of what drains down from the pulpit should be the mentality of allowing other believers to understand some things differently. Being a disciple is unrelated to YEC or science.
Some of the unsophisticated thinkers are encouraged by all sorts of “biblical proofs” that verify their need for verification. Objecting to any of the “biblical proofs” should be limited to those issues necessary for making disciples. Of course, we will not agree upon which “biblical proofs” must be addressed as false because that depends upon the congregation and the disciple. However, seeing the will of God for each of us will act as a guide of who, when, and what needs to be addressed. Humility arrives with the wisdom of understanding our own ignorance. Millions are now in heaven who believed the earth is flat and there are windows in heaven.
Those who deny their faith because their “biblical proofs” were found to be false are spiritual strangers to me. Dr. Bart D. Ehrman is a sorrowful example. The life changing spiritual encounter with the Lord Jesus is an undeniable experience for the faithful and is a necessity for a society, nation, or world to be both mentally and spiritual healthy regardless of what is believed about YEC.
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Or the “grew up that way, no idea when I could be said to have converted”-type experience.
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That could be regarded as a protracted, life-changing encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ, no?
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Thank you for including this additional perspective about the experience of growing into the Lord. “Growing up that way” might provide a firmer belief than an emotional moment. Being raised that way is just proper parenting for Christian parents. Being born to faithful Christian parents remains “an undeniable experience for the faithful” even if that experience is “growing up that way.” Your insight reveals your path to Christ.