Musings on getting "gender roles" from Genesis/the Bible

The problem begins with the assertion that “the Bible teaches”. This assumes that the Bible is one book and speaks with a “flat” level of inspiration throughout. Readers of the Bible should not be intimidated by the aggression of those who hold this view. It is not required to be an evangelical Christian.

In fact, the Bible is composed of many books, each from variant manuscript traditions, edited over wide ranges of time. Humans made decisions about which books would be included in the collection of books we call the Bible and which were to be excluded. Humans continue to decide which manuscripts provide the best available text.

The most important division of the Bible for Christians is that into the Old and New Testaments. The New Testament is primarily inspired by the resurrection of Jesus as an eschatological event signaling the turn of the ages – the dawn of the Age to Come. The earliest author in the New Testament is Paul of Tarsus who, in 1 Corinthians 15, unambiguously interpreted the resurrection of Christ as the beginning of an eschatological event culminating in the general resurrection of the dead. Matthew’s Gospel shares this eschatological view, with the resurrection of “many” occurring in the interval between the time of Jesus’ death and the realization of his resurrection. (Matthew 27:51-53).

It is clear from these writings that an understanding of the Christian life, in the light of these eschatological events, is a matter of tension between “the already and the not yet”. Paul expresses this life as being a baptism into Christ – we die and rise with him. (Romans 6). In Galatians he alludes to the consequences of this understanding:

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29 NIV)

In his various writings, Paul addresses each of these pairs. With respect to the division between Jew and Gentile, Paul looks at his own Jewishness – his circumcision, his descent from the people of Israel through the tribe of Benjamin, his assiduousness in observing the Law of Moses, etc – as a load of crap for the sake of gaining Christ and being found in Christ. (Philippians 3, esp. verse 8, where the word is translated “garbage” for the sake of the public reading of Scripture. I apologize for the use of the word “crap” in this sentence, but according to the BDAG Greek Lexicon, this is the most accurate translation here.)

In regard to the division between “slave and free”, Paul was not generally in a position to prevent slavery in the Roman Empire (neither was Spartacus!). However, in regard to a Christian slave owner by the name of Philemon, Paul was in a position to insist that Philemon was to receive back his runaway slave, Onesimus, no longer as a slave, but as a “brother in Christ”. (Philemon 1:16). Paul also tells Christians who are slaves, they should get their freedom if they can. This brings them into a Christian realm.

In regard to “male and female”, Paul imagines Christian worship as being an occasion when women, as well as men, led the congregation in prophesy and prayer. His only request was that the women covered their hair when doing so, as in that culture and that time, a woman letting down her long hair was regarded as being sexually provocative. (See Paul’s instructions in 1 Corinthians 11. It is not clear in this chapter when Paul is quoting his opponents or putting forward his counter argument. I think Paul begins his views with the word translated “nevertheless”. It is also known that the Greek word for “head”, had its first metaphorical meaning as “source”, not “boss”. We’ve known this since the 1950s, so I am not sure why it is not commonly referenced.)

The other reference where Paul addresses being “male and female” is in regard to having sex. The sexual drive remains because we still have one foot in the Old Age. In other words, we are not yet like the angels in heaven. Paul addresses this in 1 Corinthians 7. It is interesting to note in his conversation here that he says the wife has authority over her husband’s body. Surely such advice for the moments which are the essence of our gender differences, must flow into all areas of our sexuality.

Outside of the Fundamentalist camp, Biblical scholars generally regard the Pastoral letters as having been written by others in Paul’s name, which we are told was a common practice. Today we would be more direct and say they were fraudulent. Enough said. These letters seem to be an attempt to rein back the radical Christian message and make it conform to cultural pressures.

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Hopefully Matthew isn’t “teaching” that the saints literally rose because it is complete fiction.

Many here still fight tooth and nail in defense of the pastorals which do the same thing with slavery that they do with misogyny. Ephesians (assuming this was written by Paul!) dares to give slave owners obligations. Crossan writes, “A Roman peterfamilias might growl: How dare you tell my slaves about my obligations to them, and by the way, do not dare to address my slaves directly rather than through me.” Yet in Titus there is no more distinction between slave and free or rules for slave owners. It is all about slaves being obedient to their masters.

Titus 2:9-10 reads, “ Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, 10 not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.”

It doesn’t even address slaves. The “free people” have to tell the slaves. Yes, I realize its addressed to “Titus” but it was meant to go to a community since this was just the cover story for the forger.

For some, Ephesians isn’t as radical as Philemon or Galatians 3:28 or 1 For 12:13. It assumes Christians can own slaves and that Christian slaves should obey their Christian earthly masters in all that they do as if they were serving God.

We learn it is Philemon’s duty to not just forgive Onesimus but to embrace him as a brother in both flesh and the Lord. Paul could command this but wants Philemon to do it on his own and knows he will go above and beyond even what Paul is asking. There is rhetorical brilliance in the letter and Paul is essentially telling him without telling him to free Onesimus. He is no longer his slave but to be welcomed as a brother. This is not just spiritual freedom as flesh makes clear. For real-Paul in the 50s, a Christian should not own another Christian as a slave. They cannot be unequal in Christ.

The situation changes with Ephesians though it still is a step up from society in general. By the time of the pastorals, slaves and women are put back in their place.

Do you consider the pastorals scripture?

Vinnie

Let us suppose, just for the moment, that this story of a wider resurrection is fiction. We would then be left to consider what Matthew is trying to say theologically. Matthew associates the resurrection of Jesus with the general resurrection. In other words, Matthew asserts in narrative form what Paul asserts in a statement in 1 Corinthians 15.

We do not have to believe that Matthew’s account of a wider resurrection is fact to understand the theological points being made. We might easily move on from Matthew’s account. However, for some the assumption of “fiction” lingers as an unanswered question. Is it?

As a historian, I cannot tell you what actually happened. I can only tell you what people at the time believed had happened. Since that time, people make assertions about Matthew’s account being fact or fiction based on the epistemological phenomenon of “what everybody knows to be true”. And herein lies the problem. “What everyone knows to be true” is constantly changing.

I tend to use examples from astronomy because it reflects my interests, but also shows clear examples. When the Rev Dr Nicholas Copernicus put forth his view that the Earth spun on its axis and orbited the Sun, most people regarded it as absurd because of what everyone knew to be true. Whenever people hopped onto their horse-drawn carriage and hit a corner at high speed, they would roll the carriage and have been flung into a tree and died. A satisfactory answer to this problem came only centuries later with Einstein’s theories about the fabric of space being warped into curves around objects of immense mass, and the rate of flow of time being affected by one’s speed through space.

You would have to unpack what you mean by considering the pastorals scripture in order for me to be able to answer that question.

I do not disagree but there are 3 options if the story is fiction. Matthew very well may have believed his myths.

True. But on the flip side, why do we have to understand and agree with the theological points being made if the guard story, the earthquakes and the holy ones rising from the grave are all fictional embellishments of Mark’s narrative which Matthew copied? Why believe a “historical report” shown to be false, or why believe “the point the author tried to convey” with a historical report that is shown to be false. It is all canon but I’d rather zoom out on the gospels than laser in and try to find a hidden meaning behind every fiction. Clearly Matthew has in his mind something like Ezekeil 37 and the general resurrection of the dead. Beyond this the story is bizarre in every way.

Of course its fiction. A summary from what I wrote (more details are provided in the link itself):

What field of history do you work in? Sometimes we can infer what people think happened most likely did happen (its historical) but this is all based on probability. For example, Jesus was crucified is something I would consider historically certain. The more complete the record the more confidence we can have. Of course this depends on the nature of our sources, potential lines of transmission, etc. Even then you have to interpret what the text says (what the people believed happened). For example, did Matthew believe his myths? One cannot fully answer that as we are in no position to cross-examine ancient sources or read their minds on most issues.

This doesn’t force us into solipsism. Despite that science changes we can still trust its findings. We know that the sun does not orbit the earth. Contrary to some uncritical opinion that tries to attack things they disagree with, changing beliefs is a good thing. Yes, we don’t want a field to be completely flimsy and a wishy washy consensus changing too and fro with the wind, but changing beliefs is a sign of people being open to the evidence. If beliefs never changed they couldn’t be trusted in my opinion. What matters is the evidence presented and clearly the holy ones in Matthew is troubling in every regard if not viewed as fiction, regardless of whether or not you are a full methodological naturalist or believe miracles are possible.

And to use your own standard, this isn’t about changing beliefs because the silence is so deafening that no one seems to have believed this besides Matthew (assuming even he did).

Kind of self evidence. Are they normative for faith? Any more normative than say 1 Clement, Didache, Thomas etc? I am not asking if they are inerrant or infallible. Only if you consider them authoritative for Christians in some sense.

Vinnie

Genesis is not science, but history. But if it is reliable history, it will not conflict with science.

Acts 17
16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.

Paul was not “presuming polytheism” as his belief. He was distressed by the Athenian polytheism. Here is his response to their belief:

22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

The divine counsel is the one God in three persons–monotheism, not polytheism.

Those two issues are so different. I don’t see how “flat earth” and husband and wife relationships can inform each other.

And then we end up with competing and often contradictory intuitions. When “my intuition” is contrary to “your intuition,” then how can we reason together? How can intuition be a helpful criteria?

Ephesians 5

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

This is a biblical truth, not a social construct. It can’t be because it is parallel to and illustrative of Christ and the Church. We certainly need to put “submission” in the context of husbands loving their wife in the way that Christ loves the church. Then “submission” will never be abusive or “suppression” or “oppression.”

First, the author of Genesis was writing history as informed by a first person eyewitness account, God the Creator. Because of this, there is no delineation between history and science. If we want to know about President Lincoln and the Gettysburg address, we appeal to history, not science.

Hebrews 9:22
According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Jesus did not forgive sins without the shedding of his own blood.

Ephesians 1: 4, 7

For he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in love before him

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 that he richly poured out on us with all wisdom and understanding.

Redemption comes though Jesus’ blood. And in context, Jesus’ sacrifice is not time bound. So when Jesus forgave sin “before” his crucifixion and death, it is not as if he forgave sins “before” he died.

There seems to be an implied assumption that Jesus and Paul were on different wavelengths. I don’t see that at all.

Ancient Hebrews had no concept of the Trinity. This is just wrong. Read some scholarship.

They don’t inform each other. They are both examples of cultural constructs, not some kind of absolute truth claim.

Disciplines like antthopology and cognitive linguistics can provide heuristics for identifying cultural constructs in literarture.

What is “this”

I am claiming the audience to whom this was spoken had cultural constructs about marriage that were patriarchal. This is not a controversial claim.

I am also claiming that when Paul said husbands as head and wives as body form a unified whole, and that is the context and rationale behind a wife’s submission, they would have understood that to be countering their assumption that wives were to submit because of unquestioned male authority, which would have been their default understanding based on their constructs. The original audience’s cultural constructs would be challegned to think about how this truth applied to their ideas of men, women, and marriage, just as it will challenge our own today. But the truth will challenge us differently because it is speaking into a different starting construct.

What is parallel is not authority or gender roles, what is parallel is that Christ is the head and the Church is the body and together they form a unified whole.

This seems the crux of it to me. You have to consider the audience to understand the message just as in the the OT when direction is given regarding the limits of the severity of beating which one may inflict on a slave. That is no endorsement of slavery but reflects guidance toward our ongoing improvement. Surely no one feels we are now perfect as we are?

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It’s always bothered me that v.21 is left as a sort of orphan on the previous section in translations that divide the books into topical sections. One of the standard exercises in New Testament was to take the Greek text without any verse divisions or punctuation or other formatting and work out our own format(s) as we went, and v.21 obviously belongs as a heading to the section, which really isn’t about wives and husbands primarily; those are just illustrations. And in one class we located the governing concept clear back to v.15:

Βλέπετε οὖν ἀκριβῶς πῶς περιπατεῖτε μὴ ὡς ἄσοφοι ἀλλ’ ὡς σοφοί
“Observe carefully therefore how you walk [through life], not as fools but as wise [ones].”

Verse 21 flows nicely from that and shifts into a more general discussion of submitting to each other.

I think that comes from looking at the passage as though it’s a set of instructions to be followed rather than an illustration of the manner in which husbands and wives are to be submitting one to the other. That opening clause clearly governs this because it contains the only verb until v.24, which given the ἀλλὰ, “but”, that starts it is a shift in subject. The whole metaphor isn’t about authority, it’s about serving, so the question isn’t “How is the husband the head?”, it’s “How does the husband submit himself to [i.e. serve] the wife?”

And that’s a radical assertion that at least one sociologist has tied to the growth of the church especially early on; it gave status to women, and wealthy women (as we see with Phoebe) apparently flocked to the church – to an extent pulling their families with them.

Well it’s also a bad interpretation given both vv.15 & 21! “Head of the wife” is an instruction on how the husband is to submit to the wife, not be her “lord”, and “submitting one to another” is a subset of “walking” as wise ones rather than as fools.

Ack – I just noticed the time; I’ll have to put that article off till tomorrow. I suspect it will be another one that makes me wish I were back in grad school.

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There are days I’d love to be transferred into an android body like Commander Data in Star Trek, just so I could catch up on all my reading!

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I read it as primarily discussing a hermeneutic principle, which is something that is critical.

And this is why I think it’s also important to talk about hermeneutics as it relates to other topics like homosexuality and transgenderism. But as was clarified:

Did you see my comment which linked Rod Dreher’s article:

I’m going to go put on a limb here, but I think it is actually critical for a hermeneutic here, and say that the major theme of the Old Testament is faithfulness, and that all of the Torah has to be judged by that standard. In Israel’s ancient tribal and kingdom context, faithfulness to the people of God would have meant things different than what it did in the age of the prophets, and again something different in the days of the church. So my question about all relationships in terms of gender (and sexuality) would start with the question of faithfulness – and that means defining “sexual immorality” in terms primarily of promiscuity because promiscuity is inherently unfaithful to every single partner. I’d say that’s where Paul’s admonition that “it is better to marry than to burn” comes from; as a Methodist pastor when I was a teen put it, if you can’t keep your pants on, find one person and one only with whom you will take them off – addressed equally to both genders in a group where there was tittering and some red faces.

The flip side of that being that the Bible doesn’t endorse those things, either. It’s more of a “Since you’re going to do these things anyway, here’s the best way to do so”.

True – most people are allergic to real thinking.

The second sentence reminds me of a professor of ancient literature who began the first day of class by writing “audience” on the board and then gave the etymology, the word descending from Latin audire via participles audiens and audientum – audire “to hear” and the two participles “ones who hear”, which gave us the words audio “sound” and auditorium “a place for listening”, all to emphasize that in every case in ancient literature “audience” meant people who heard the material read vocally, not to anyone who just sat and read it. He provided examples all the way up through Augustine where reading something didn’t refer to making sense of the words on a page but to pronouncing the words out loud in order(and noted that a “reader” was someone who read aloud so others could listen). He then launched us into a discussion of why this was significant, which took a lot of prodding since most people in the class had almost never read anything out loud since grade school.

The ancient church actually believed “sola scriptura” as the Wittenburg Reformers, the original Protestants, meant it, not as the answer to “What is the single source of doctrine?” but as the answer to “What is the highest authority?”, the difference being that the former turns everyone into his or her own “pope” while the second includes the Fathers and councils as sources for theology so long as they did not teach contrary to scripture. This is why the Lutheran reformation was conservative, as they kept everything that was not contradicted in scripture, while pretty much the rest of the reformation was radical because they threw out anything they could not derive from scripture.
I don’t remember when it was, but I recall reading along and encountering Jesus’ promise that the Holy Spirit would lead the Apostles (and presumably their successors) into all truth, and realizing that given this promise then the radical application of sola scriptura wasn’t biblical, a point confirmed when I reached Paul’s declaration that the Holy Spirit gives teachers to the church.
By the way, I encountered the use of “inerrancy” in a couple of the early Fathers and found they didn’t mean what it’s used for today; they used it in the sense of an archery term, that the Word of the Lord always strikes its target; it wasn’t about ‘errors’ in the scriptures, it was about the power of the Word. It didn’t really take on its modern meaning until much, much later.

The Bible itself doesn’t support such a view, given how the prophets and then Jesus drew out principles and then overturned chunks of scripture. In this connection I always recall how through the prophets God told Israel that He hated what He had commanded.

Paul shows the way by how he treats the Old Testament: he rarely treats it literally; his approach was to draw out the principles behind everything. Of course in that he is following the example of the prophets, but he goes more directly into the text and says things like, “This is an allegory” – and contrary to the hermeneutical assertion of one OT professor, “just because Paul did it doesn’t mean you can”, given that Paul said that scripture is written for our instruction, then the ways he interpreted the scriptures is an example for us.

That’s actually affirmed by the ruling of the Council of Jerusalem as recorded in Acts 15 where the entire Mosaic covenant law was reduced to just four items: the Old Testament cannot be taken literally as applying to us, it can only be used for drawing lessons from. That’s very unsettling to a lot of Christians who would much rather have a list of rules to follow (and to pound other people over the head with) than to have to draw out principles.

Another way to sum it up was given by one of the minor prophets: it is all there to teach us to act justly, to be ever merciful, and to walk humbly. Any interpretation of the Old Testament especially which does not do that is in error.

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This off-topic, but when it comes to Genesis 1 and cosmology I am always reminded of the ancient scholars who examined that first Creation account closely and concluded that

  • the universe started out smaller than a grain of mustard, which is an idiom meaning “so small there is nothing smaller”
  • the universe, filled with fluid (“water”), expanded incredibly rapidly, thinning the fluid
  • when God said, “Light – BE!”, the fluid thinned so that light shone freely
  • the Earth is incredibly ancient, though not as ancient as the universe

They were using a principle common to ancient literature where the letters themselves had meaning, though I don’t recall the details of that, along with examining just the words themselves. But I found it rather humbling that scholars who grew up speaking Hebrew saw in Genesis a Creation that is eerily close to today’s cosmology . . . and in all my time reading the Old Testament in Hebrew I never saw a hint of that – well, except in the moniker “the Ancient of Days” used of God, from which I conclude that God had already experienced/observed the universe over a very, very long time before humans came along/

I’d say it only assumes that the writers of the items in this small library spoke with one voice, rather like a chorus in a Greek tragedy, and not in numerous discordant voices.

As to a “‘flat’ level of inspiration”, even rabbinic Judaism recognizes that there are different levels of inspiration in the scriptures, that some are the Word of the Lord directly, e.g. when a prophet declares “Thus says the Lord”, and others are lesser, such as in the Psalms which tend to express the views of the writers (David, Asaph, etc.), and still others are lesser, e.g. historical bits which address theology only very indirectly, and still others are even lesser, e.g. statements made by pharaoh and other non-Israelites, and so on.

We speak of the canon of scripture as though all the contents are equal, but the early church distinguished between books that had universal, unanimous affirmation (homologoumena) and those which were accepted but with opposition (antilegomena, “spoke against”), and applied the rule that the second group must be interpreted in light of the first group, which meant that the second group wasn’t to be used to establish doctrine but only to affirm doctrine which is founded in the first group. Ironically, it was the first evangelicals, the Lutherans, who tried to get the church to recognize this "layering’ of the scriptures, but even most Lutherans today have forgotten about it (which is tragic since a large number of rather deviant teachings haave arisen due to people drawing doctrine from the antilegomena).

But even there which sort of has a canon within the canon there is another “layer”, and that is that everything has to conform to the Gospels, making them a deeper canon within a canon, and finally there is what has been called the final canon, the message of the Gospel itself, the standard to which all all the canon has to conform.

And all of that indeed sort of affirms that there is no flat level of inspiration throughout because it takes the core principle, the Gospel, and requires that everything conform to it, and so on down the line.

Then given that the New Testament is in essence a canon that is above the Old Testament, then we come around to the question of just how much we can derive gender roles from Genesis by itself especially when there is another canon that the New Testament itself has to conform to, namely the Gospel.

That strikes me as an odd thing to say, and that pastor as someone Paul would command not to associate with.

To include the whole statement:

I don’t see anything odd about it, or anything objectionable to Paul; it’s an admonition against promiscuity that essentially paraphrases Paul’s admonition,

Ha! I read it as your youth pastor the first time. Still, I don’t think that’s how Paul would define sexual fidelity.

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