Morality and Subjectivity / Objectivity

You can’t base something on the nature or essence of what it means to be human and then claim it is a mind-independent feature of the world.

What constitutes the flourishing of a rational human animal based on our ends or telos is a subjective judgement based on human needs and desires*.*

note: I got this one wrong, but leaving it in for consistency with other posts.

That is false. Morality can be subjective and still produce an agreed upon morality because we share the same subjective senses when it comes to morality.

That’s a belief, not an objective fact. This can’t be the basis of an objective morality.

What is inconsistent with objective moral law is that you can’t produce one. Everything you say about morality is based on religious belief and human nature which is inherently subjective.

Quibble: What Vinnie said is true.

If morality is objective, then atheists and Christians can agree on it.

It’s the converse - if atheists and Christians agree on morality then it is objective - that is false.

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I must have quoted the wrong section for my response or misread it. I agree, Vinnie was correct on that one, and I will leave a note saying as much.

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I will need to reread it and make sure I am not implying the opposite.

If morality is objective and discoverable, then both atheists and Christians (theists) should be able to –in principle–agree on what constitutes moral facts. This does not mean they will agree on everything, but just that as atheists and Christians can both engage in quality science in the lab, they should also be able to work out quality ethical systems. I believe everything ultimately depends on God and theists can provide a more complete picture of reality, but nothing prevents us from dialoging with atheists to work out proximate ethics.

I do not think I did. The sense I intended to convey was that without invoking God, if morality is objective, then just like atheists and Christians can work together and produce quality science work, they should in theory be able to do the same with ethics.

We disagree. A sustaining prime mover is an objective fact.

God is the source of everything but nowhere do I invoke God in making an argument for natural moral law. That was the whole point of that section.

I’d say in some cases it might be but in others it is not. Do you really think it’s subjective that not eating or drinking ever again will lead to a specific human flourishing? It is an objective fact that someone killing themselves does not lead to their flourishing. But this is part 7 of the article… and the most difficult one to write to be honest. Im there now. I’ll dump 4, 5 and 6 incrementally.

Still waiting for you to find me a “two” in the woods. Or maybe you think you can do science without math or logic. Science doesn’t own the word “objective” despite what materialists who only believe in efficient and material causes might otherwise think.

Vinnie

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It’s a belief, not an objective fact. There’s a prime mover because you say so. That’s not how objective facts are established.

“Christians in the Aristotle-Thomist (A-T) tradition view God as upholding all material things at all times.”

You even describe it as a view. You describe the Aristotle-Thomist view as a tradition. Nowhere do you demonstrate the existence of prime mover in an objective sense.

Is it moral to prevent someone from starving themselves to death? Could we view someone who starves themselves to death in protest of a moral wrong as a martyr, as someone to honor as being moral themselves?

Count trees until you get to two.

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Yeah there is a tiny difference between the prophet married with a six years old child and Jesus Christ…

And certainly nobody can say that imitating Muhammad will bring forth the best version of yourself.

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How many Muslims would agree with you?

To be honest, that’s hardly relevant. Following in Jesus’ footsteps brings out the very best that humanity can offer—provided that one genuinely strives to imitate Him. This is something that can be observed in practice: when someone truly seeks to imitate Jesus, striving to act as He would have acted and to do what He would have done in any given situation, they become a far better person. There is simply no comparison between Him and the prophet of what I consider a Christian heresy (as I believe Islam has been from the very beginning), who—again, I will say—was married to a six-year-old. Unless one wishes to argue that even such an action can be morally justified—which would not surprise me at all—because once objective morality is rejected, literally anything can become permissible under the right circumstances.

Following Jesus makes a person better—of that, there is no doubt. His disciples were willing to die in order to testify to His Resurrection. They claimed to have seen, heard, and touched the risen Jesus, and they were in a position to know whether they were telling the truth. In purely human terms, they had everything to lose by bearing witness to the Gospel. They had nothing to gain and everything—literally everything—to lose. * And most importantly they were in the position of knowing whether they were saying the truth or not.

*1 Corinthians 4,9-13: “For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong!You are honored, we are dishonored! To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted,we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment.”

This is what they gained, humanly, by bearing witness to the Gospel.

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I don’t say so. The cosmological argument says so. Aristotle, Aquinas and thousands of other philosophers of religion say so beached on logic and argumentation. The premises are true and the conclusions follow. Thus, the prime mover is an objective part of reality based on metaphysical logic. That would be my argument. But establishing that was not the point. Only showing that even though God is not needed for proximate ethics, as. a Christian I still believe God is needed in an ultimate sense as the sustaining cause of everything. You assert things as if your scientific reductionism is a factual posture everyone else must argue against. How about trying to actual defend your worldview? You are deluded into thinking that people disagreeing on something means it can’t be objective true. I’ve exposed that logical fallacy already and article 3 was devoted entirely to it. Please drop the faulty logic.

None of that precludes it from being objectively true as well. It’s okay to neutrally describe your own views on other issues in a paper that is not something directly being defended. You need to read more charitably. I was laying out the Thomist position that lead to what I ended with: " If the natural moral law is truly natural, and moral facts are discoverable, even though they ultimately depend on God in a hierarchical sense, basic ethical principles should be discoverable by everyone just as we can engage in science and discover efficient causes without direct reference to God." In no sense am I expressing any view that thinks God is not the ground of all reality or cannot be demonstrated to exist. It was reassurance the opposite is true.

Why? So I can confuse physical instances of something with the immaterial concept itself? I wouldn’t be pointing at “two” as a concept.

You claim that only scientific evidence is objectively true. Whether you admit it or not this is what you do over and over again on here. But guess what? This claim itself is not open to scientific evaluation and is entirely self-defeating. It also dumps logic and math from being objective truths which further undercuts science’s ability to do anything.

Red herring. That is an issue with more complexity. I know what I believe but I already said our moral views will always be a mix of subjective and objective components. You who think everything is subjective need to answer the question I posed:

I’d say in some cases it might be but in others it is not. Do you really think it’s subjective that not eating or drinking ever again will lead to a specific human flourishing? It is an objective fact that someone killing themselves does not lead to their flourishing.

Don’t pivot and try to raise whataboutisms. That is a low level tactic.

Vinnie

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The views of Aristotle-Thomist tradition Christians are clearly not objective facts, their views clearly include more than just a sustaining prime mover, and having a productive discussion with some-one who moves goalposts with such speed and finality is clearly impossible.

The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia

That merely repeats the assertion in different terms – it equates science with reality.
Replace “objective” with “material” and there’s no problem.

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I think you two are operating with different definitions of “objective”.

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This is a foundational weakness.

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It is like a person claiming they don’t exist.

[4] Defining the Is/Ought Divide

“Is” statements are descriptions of things. “Ought” statements are about actions or what should be done. Hume argued long ago that we cannot logically move from “is” to “ought” statements without other premises. Here are Hume’s own words:

“In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remark’d, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary ways of reasoning… when of a sudden I am surpriz’d to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not.” [A Treatise on Human Nature]

A sample argument will be helpful:

  1. Cyanide is poisonous to humans.
  2. Bob is a human.
    Therefore, you should not give Bob cyanide.

This argument is not valid meaning the conclusion does not follow from the premises. We would need to smuggle in a hidden premise such as “It is wrong to poison humans.” We would need to establish morality is objective and more specifically, that such a moral statement is correct in order for the argument to hold. What happens if we add a few more premises:

  1. Cyanide is poisonous to humans.
  2. Bob is a human.
  3. If you give Bob cyanide he will suffer.
  4. If you give Bob cyanide he will die.
  5. If Bob dies his family will be sad and miss him.
    Therefore, you should not Give Bob cyanide.

Even if all five premises are true, the argument is still not valid in that the conclusion does not follow. We could stack one million descriptive or “is” statements, but it will not matter. We cannot deduce morals or values from statements that don’t already have them. Just because something “is” does not mean we “ought” to act a certain way. Now someone might claim, “Well, harming innocents is obviously bad” but this is actually the sort of claim this article is attempting to demonstrate can be objectively true.

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[5] Bridging the Is/Ought Divide

If a human being is just a collection of atoms and molecules bumping into each other via only material and efficient causes, then Hume is right; you cannot derive a moral duty from any interactions of them. No matter how many bricks we stack in a circle, they will not magically become a sphere. However, the A-T tradition rejects this mechanistic view in favor of teleology—the idea that things have inherent ends, goals, or purposes (final causality). Telos is the end that a given action drives towards. It is important to understand that teleology in an Aristotelian sense has nothing to do with intelligent design or Paley’s watchmaker argument. We must put this out of our head immediately. This is not an attempt to prove God exists via gaps in scientific knowledge or to show that evolution could not have occurred or that there is inexplicable irreducible complexity in nature. Thomists are often quite critical of such arguments that depend on scraps on the floor as opposed to a main entrée that sits in front of them getting cold. Aristotle put forward the notion that any object can be described by four causes:

Material (matter): what something is made of, its physical composition.
Formal Cause (form): structure, pattern or essence that defines what something is.
Efficient (Agent): source of change be it a force or agent.
Final Cause (purpose): the goal or end purpose for which a thing exists.

In order to better understand these four causes, let us see how they would apply to a statue of David Hume. The material cause would be what the statue is made of (bronze metal or bronze atoms). The formal cause is the shape or design of the statue (resembling his human body as opposed to a pile of metal). Guven the statue is an artifact, its form is accidental, or imposed on it from the outside. The efficient cause is how the statue came to be (an artist sculpted and molded it). The final cause is the purpose of the statue (to honor David Hume and his contributions to philosophy).

Since around the 17th century, science has largely moved towards efficient, and material causation at the methodological exclusion of the other two. It has done well for itself, and is generally interested in what things are made of and how they came to be. But these two causes alone do not provide a comprehensive description of something. For example, we can look at what a car is made of and how it was made in a factory, but this does not tell us the purpose of a car: a machine that can safely and efficiently provide transportation of people and goods from A to B. We can examine the underlying matter that makes up a watch and we can even witness it being made step by step. None of this tells us its end, purpose or telos: to tell time.

In a world without telos, the Humean gulf between “is” and “ought” is infinite in extent. But if the world has telos and we can know the ends or purpose of something, we can move from is to ought because value is intrinsic to what a thing is. Look at the following argument:

  1. The watch is missing a hand.
  2. This watch has a warped spring.
    Therefore, this is a bad watch.

We have moved from two objective descriptions of a thing to its value. It may appear that we have uncritically moved from is to ought, but this is not the case. The purpose or end of a watch is to tell time. A watch that doesn’t work is objectively broken. A watch that tells time poorly is objectively inferior to one that tells time accurately. Once we know the function of purpose of a thing, “good” and “bad” become objective descriptions of how well something is at achieving its ends or fulfilling the purpose intrinsic to its nature. We can break it down as follows:

  • · Fact : The watch has no hands.
  • · Value : It is a bad watch.
  • · Why? Because we know the function of a watch.

Other examples abound. One purpose of a heart is to pump blood. One end of the human eye is to see. We can know when something is good or bad once we know it function or purpose. I find buying a car a good example because it consists of a mixture of subjective preferences and objective facts that more closely resembles the messy nature of reality.

You can have a subjective preference over the type of vehicle you buy. Maybe you want something big or maybe you want something small that is good on gas. Maybe you want black, but the wife wants red. Maybe you want a minivan, but she wants a pickup truck. You might want something that goes egregiously fast and prefer something more sporty than safe (our wants and desires do not have to correspond to what is best for us) . We could want things that harm us or are not good for us or others (they thwart our ends). Maybe you want a leather interior, but the wife wants cloth. There are a number of subjective features or preferences that go into the car buying process. These will be different from person to person.

So what is the primary purpose of a car? For someone it could be a status symbol or even a way to compensate for some perceived “deficiency” in their physical anatomy. An object can have multiple ends. I am confident that we can all agree that one primary end of a vehicle is to provide safe transportation of people and goods from A to B. Vehicles that are safer and more reliable are thus objectively better given this purpose. A vehicle without anti-lock brakes is objectively less safe than one with anti-lock brakes. This is not a matter of subjective preference. This is a physical fact based on empirical tests of static and kinetic friction. A vehicle without anti- lock brakes, headlights, brake lights, seat belts and airbags is objectively bad compared to one that has all of these things—all other things being equal.

Ed Feser is fond of using a triangle to explain this point and his analogy can also serve double duty in that triangularity as a concept is a powerful argument for the immateriality of the intellect. What is the essence of a triangle? A triangle a closed plane figure with three sides (made of line segments) and three interior angles (which add up to 180 degrees). We can draw good and bad triangles. A good triangle is one that is as close to this description as possible. If each of our line-segments were in the shape of a parabola, this would be an objectively bad triangle. This demonstrates that something can be a triangle (a certain type of thing) even if it fails to perfectly instantiates the essence of triangularity (the nature of a thing). What constitutes a well-drawn triangle is fairly obvious most of the time. A good or bad triangle is based on the definition or nature of what a triangle is. That makes it entirely objective. If you said red triangles are the best or you liked small triangles better than big triangles, those would personal preferences. A modern artist might intentionally draw a skewed triangle, and it can inevitably be a good drawing to them insofar as it expresses some meaning they wish to convey about reality. But it would not be good in the sense of accurately instantiating the essence of what a triangle is and this is not an issue because we only know the triangle is skewed because we understand the objective nature of essence of a triangularity to begin with. Drawing triangles is, of course, not a moral issue. Ed Feser has articulated this position on his blog:

Human beings, like every other natural substance, have a nature or substantial form, and what is good for them – what constitutes their flourishing – is determined by the ends or final causes that follow upon having that sort of nature or substantial form.

A “good” heart is one that pumps blood efficiently. A “bad” root canal is one that fails to remove the infection. These are objective facts, not matters of opinion. Now there is a chief difference here. Only rational beings with intellect and will can engage in morally good or bad decisions. These other examples have been analogies primarily intending to demonstrate that once you know something’s nature, you can decide on whether it is good or bad at fulfilling that function. An eye that cannot see is not morally bad and neither is a heart that pumps blood poorly. Neither can behave otherwise. Even animals cannot engage in moral behaviors. Feser writes:

“If a squirrel were rational, it would be natural and good for it to will to escape predators and to gather nuts for the winter, and unnatural and bad for it to will to offer itself up to predators and to eat only toothpaste or stones. And the latter would be unnatural and bad for it whatever the reason it willed these things—brain damage, genetic anomalies giving rise to odd desires, bad squirrel upbringing, squirrel peer pressure, the influence of squirrel pop culture, arguments from squirrel philosophers who were hostile to natural law, or whatever.”

Human beings on the other hand can choose to pursue the ends our nature intends for us or to go against them. Determining what is morally good or morally bad for humans then, is not a matter of inventing arbitrary rules, but of discovering what facilitates our flourishing given our nature and what thwarts it. Establishing a natural moral law is an objective enterprise insofar as we humans share an essence and we can understand the ends or telos of our nature.

Vinnie

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If only we coukd tell if there was a purpose for people.

@Roy

For theists with blurry “vision”, seeing the 10 commandments
becomes 90% of an objective morality. 90% of the remaining
debate devolves on the remaining 10% of what else should
be considered an objective morality.

For non-theists, who claim excellent vision, the 10 commandments
might represent 10% of an “ethical agreement on morality”.

G.Brooks

I note that the Decalog is not the foundation of Christian morality, the Cross is.
We have a source of objective morality – it’s just that expanding on it is left as an exercise for the disciple.

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@St.Roymond

Morality is based on a code…. written prohibitions. What are the written
admonitions or prohibitions that the Cross provides that help millions of
people get along with each other?

G.Brooks

According to whom? I call that a pre-school definition.