No no no no.
I was simply giving Biblical examples of things that God allows for a ‘compromise’ of sorts in this fallen world.
Mat 19:8ball:Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Slavery was like many things COULD be acceptable, but could also be horrendous. There is and was terrible slavery, that would go in the bad column. So would having a divorce every 5 years because you ‘fell out of love’, or whatever the reason may be.
No I am again not comparing the severity of brutal slavery and divorce, any more than stealing a candy bar form a store and stealing millions from a bank is a theft and against the law. I was simply stating 2 different examples of bad things.
However, if one specifically follows very specific guidelines, some things are acceptable.
Again, this is a fallen world, not God’s ideal world. I don’t want to derail it too far and get into Numbers and the conquest of the promised land ect. I don’t have an answer for everything. But when you conquer a nation in a war, it is very sticky. The ones you conquered didn’t waive the white flag willingly. It is kind of hard to just be neighbors after that… Slavery was a historic solution to that problem.
This is why a king was so highly regarded, respected and feared. You life was pretty much in his hands. If you disrespected him and went to his chamber without being summoned, the sentence was death, unless he extended his scepter to spare you. But this (hopefully) wise and gracious king would also build a great kingdom, that gave you safety from marauders and other nations. You paid a tax to him to keep the walls up and keep the army fed and trained. Basic govt agreement.
This is also why I chose the Kingdom of God. We were designed to, but logically, it is the kingdom that cannot be overthrown and offers great protection and peace and has a loving and merciful and gracious king.
If your king was a hot head, or unwise, or greedy, and tried to make war with another country you would probably die in some war, and wouldn’t want to live there. You could seek to join another kingdom, with a wiser or more powerful king. But war wasn’t really a surprise, it was announced and prepared for. When the battle began, you basically hedge your bets. If you knew your king was going to lose, you could be a traitor (not a bad thing if you were leaving a bad kingdom and probably were going to die anyway), but you might be able to join the other kingdom. Sure not as a citizen at first, but perhaps as a slave or a servant? You sell your life to another man, to save yours or your family. You just hope the slave owner is a just person.
Or if your nation is conquered, you can sometimes become a slave at that point unwillingly. Which still is not the worst thing IF, the slave owner is a just man and there are guidelines to follow. And the alternative was, either die in war, or you could have left your nation. You made your bed, now you have to lie in it. Life isn’t fair. Again, because of this fallen world we live in.
So slavery is not automatically the a horrendous thing (can be merciful) that it can be and often becomes. I am not a biblical scholar, maybe one who knows more about it can chime in. But I recall reading things like Ex 21:2
"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
So slavery was a way to earn freedom, citizenship, and land. It was a lot more like an indentured servant than the brutal slavery we read about. Eph 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Maybe I should have said slavery COULD be acceptable just like divorce. But it is not always acceptable.
That is why under it (in the bad column), I said mistreating another human is bad. I was attempting to say, “this is bad form of slavery”. I listed 2 good things, 2 acceptable things, and 2 bad things, and all 3 that I chose were relatable as best as I could within the 3 things. and I chose 2 unrelated things to give 3 examples of 2 different things.
But just like slavery is bad as it creates anger and strife and physical harm, multiple divorces cause great strife and emotional harm.
So again, to clarify. No, slavery is not morally preferable to having multiple sex partners.
Slavery can be an acceptable practice at one point in history, if one follows guidelines. But slavery or divorce is not something God ever designed or intended to have happen, but due to our hard hearts, it is sometimes allowed.
Though really we are all slaves to something. Most of us are slaves to debt. We chose the comforts of the things we buy as a master. We can’t leave it without being punished. We have to work to pay it off. I am a slave to God’s will, His design. I feel living (or attempting to) live according to His design gives me freedom/peace. Those who reject God’s authority are still slaves to His design. Just like gravity doesn’t care if you jump off a building if you believe in it or not, you will fall, the truth of what gravity is won’t change. You can fight your design and try with all your might to live other than you were designed to live, try to fill that void (when being separated form God), but only God can fill that. You are a slave to your desires. This void needs to be filled and you are a slave and will attempt to fill it with anything and everything, and nothing will set you free other than the truth. God is the truth, and the light, and the truth will set you free.
The entire reason for “rules” and “morals” is not to hurt us, but to help us. and engine is a slave to it’s design, it operates optimally when the engineer’s specifications are followed. We have the Bible and the Spirit to inform us of our operating specs, and will live the most optimal life when we follow them. But all of these operation specs are impossible to follow alone. We needs God to help us follow them. We need to depend on God, to help us to honor Him. That is how we were designed. Jesus was the Great Mechanic, that was able to live under operation specs 100% with God’s help, and is our High Mechanic that allows us run despite being way out of specs, and even more, runs for us so we don’t need to run. We are all like failed 1.21 gigawatt generators, and Jesus is the 1.21 gigawatt generator (more like a sun or some big bang event of infinite power, but I like back to the future jokes) that provides unlimited power to all who believe. If we believe in the Mechanic, we are still stuck with this slightly restored generator, and still do our best to produce 1 milliwatt if we can, but that is not used to power anything, nor is it relied upon, we do it out of love for our Great Engineer who engineered us to make power.
The power created is the ‘good morals’. It is a result of our inside, that is why the Bible refers to it as fruit. You don’t attempt to grow fruit out of thin air. You could produce a wax apple or wooden apple or some kind of fake apple in a day. But you couldn’t eat it, you wouldn’t get any nutrients from it. The only way to get a nutritious apple, is to plant a tree, and work on the ‘inside’. You allow Spirit to water your tree, and sink your roots in the Word of God, delicious, nutritious fruit will come abundantly!
If you are chasing subjective or objective morals, you missed the message of Jesus entirely. The Pharisees wanted fruit, to show off and and show their ‘glory’. Whitewahsed tombs with filth inside. But a tree with the Spirit and Truth produces an abundance of fruit for the glory of God!
I agree it caused many problems, but I am not sure it was ever acceptable. I don’t recall any scripture that puts any allowable marriage other than one man and one women. It happened, sure, but I don’t think it was ever acceptable.
Commended by God or man? They made a mutually beneficial agreement and stuck to it.
I know it is difficult to trust God fully. Even with faith the size of a mustard seed could move a mountain. So I mostly agree that most of the time, we will use the ends to justify the means. I just don’t think that is considered ‘good’.
Where do you draw the line? Is it okay to kill 1 to save 2? What about 1 to save 1 million? Kind of like Hiroshima killed again tens of thousands, but allegedly saved millions. What if it was a quick painful death or a slow painless death?
I forget this myself at times, this is why I need things like my daily bread to keep me refocused on God and the eternal and not the world, but chasing apples is not what Christianity is about.
I am not for pro-life. It is a very complex situation that the government shouldn’t have a say in. But I am very for mandatory education. I don’t think it is good to shame or rub it in. But you should be well aware of the tough decision you are making. What I think is a crime, it telling them it is not yet human. It is very easy to do horrendous things to people when you dehumanize them. An ultra sound should be mandatory. I think way less abortions would happen if that was law.
I know we are told to look after those who can’t themselves, and that is the '(misguided) backbone to the pro-life movement. But then they go to extremes of insulting and hating on others to achieve this ‘wonderful’ goal they set out. God is in control, we need to trust Him, and can debate in love, and try to inform. But legislation (and even less hate) does not fix morality, but God can. We need to (myself included) quite chasing apples, and start focusing on the waters of the Spirit and the soil of God, and fruit will come, and abortion wouldn’t be needed. A little faith could move the mountain of abortion and remove it from this earth.
I don’t know if I could make that blanket statement either. Based off of the proverb to give a man a fish or teach him to fish. It isn’t the action that is moral, it is the heart. If you love and care for your fellow man, you have a genuine desire to help him out. Maybe it is to give a fish, but it might be to teach how to fish. but that moral heart is to glorify the Father who blessed you with what you have, share His love with them. Like what Jesus did, He related with people, and met their needs.
Which is why I am not a fan of the whole WWJD moevment. It doesn’t matter what would Jesus do as much as it would if it was Why Did Jesus Do it? Much fruit and ‘good’ moral’ things came from Jesus because of the Spirit in Him and His heart, not trying to do good acts.
I think the best moral advice I could give to anyone (even a non-Christian), would be the golden rule. Treat others as you want to be treated, aka the 2nd greatest commandant. if this was followed, I don’t think anyone would ever disagree on the morals of something.
The major problem that a non-Christian would have with this, is that they might think they can do that alone. But they can’t, we need god to produce the fruit in us, we can’t produce it ourselves. A world were everyone believed in the golden rule might be slightly better off, but not much, as we would fail to follow this rule often. We would find a way to justify the means by the ends.
Why should this guy have this nice thing, he doesn’t work as hard as me. I should steal it. Boom, that hardened heart broke two commandments, coveting and stealing. When you allow the waters of the Spirit run dry, the fruit becomes rotten. And we see this rotten fruit, so we have to try ourselves even harder to avoid it and reject dependence of God even further, thinking we can fix this mess ourselves.