I haven’t seen this except for interpretations. One could say a beginning, creation through divisions, relativity we had to wait for Einstein to understand. God as both the beginning and end are advanced scientific concepts for people who had no clue.
Is there one claim you believe came from God that was faulty? Reference helps. Sorry if you’ve posted, I came in the middle.
Why He hides things is a separate topic I find cool.
I don’t believe God inspired scientific facts so the faults didn’t come from God. I was responding to bigbagomoney who believes Moses was given scientific knowledge directly from God. I did provide a list somewhere, but anyone who is familiar with the OT would recognize the things that the author got wrong when compared to modern science. The basic cosmology which is referenced all through the OT for example.
The hiddenness of God is something we are not given a whole lot of information on in the Bible.
Which eye? The third?
Okay, no specifics. I had hoped you had one. grin…
I will add cosmologically we are about to do some very strange things. The poles are moving and some scientists are seriously wondering if it’s just a magnetic pole flip or will the earth also flip, or reverse spin its spin as a result of crossing the galactic plane. They’re not sure but are sure watching. Most all the planets are also going through drastic changes.
I’m sure they’re looking to find some scientists to help generate more carbon tax.
Looks like we are going to be taught some new science it seems.
There is a lot of empirical scientific stuff like hail, earthquakes, and famon as well as current country alignments for a war that’s coming true. As well as an economic collapse and Damascus being destroyed overnight and gone by morning. all accumulating within one generation as prophecied in the last book. Truth gets the final say.
There is a promise for those who truly seek him and not just word service will be protected from the final show. Once it starts, the rest of us go through it.
This stuff has been going on since the beginning of time … there are always wars, rumors of wars - always stuff to get excited about. But when we read what Christ teaches in Luke 17, we learn that “the kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed.” (v. 20). So all this fuss about predicting end times is all for naught. Everybody is (and has always been) guaranteed to be living in the end times - their own end times. And many times in history already, it has even had devastatingly apocalyptic flavor, as it continues to have now for many parts of the world. Our only call is to try to remain faithful within the contexts each of us is given, and not go chasing off after end-times enthusiasts pointing this way and that as if they can defy the very scriptures they are striving so hard to “decode.”
Really? You need specifics?
Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven.
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:22-23 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Last time I checked there wasn’t a solid dome over the flat circular earth which is supported on pillars with windows in the dome. Hopefully you will agree that this is the way the Earth is consistently described throughout the Bible. If you want the full skinny see The Lost World of Genesis One by John H. Walton.
And last, but not least
Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
I am very sure the sun doesn’t move around the earth.
And before you respond remember I was replying to a person who believes God granted Moses supernatural knowledge about science in just one portion of Genesis, which fits his pet theory, but somehow didn’t provide supernatural knowledge in the other parts.
We know better and still say the sun rises today for many reasons.
Sorry, I am not going to engage in this. Thanks Bill.
I see your problem description as the following
If I DECIDE a curved piece of metal is concaved and build a slide out of it.
If I DECIDE the curved metal in instead convexed and build a roof from it.
If you objectively deny both claims saying scientifically it is just a curve. Then there is no function or purpose for it.
It seems your desire to tell the builder his is delusional, the curve is neither convex nor concaved. In that perspective, you are disallowing any perspective and associated function as accurate. So nothing gets done.
Yes because we, and the Bible, are speaking of a phenomena. As I stated, at least twice,
The Bible records the appearance of many things, such as the motion of the sun, that modern science has told us is not correct. Our eyes can deceive us. If you think I am trying to say the Bible is wrong you misunderstand. As in the following:
Sorry but that doesn’t follow from anything I have said.
And it appears you won’t agree, but the Hebrew concept of cosmology is illustrated here
True, the description is not sciences perspective. I see naivete as a generator of falsehoods, are endlessly fighting each in the periphery? Given we are all born naive and new ones are born every day, how will you win?
If your goal is to eliminate error, it will take forever. Can you? Will you stop newborns? Is this the right fight?
The more concerning problem isn’t an error out of a never-ending supply, but the intent behind it. IMHO
I don’t. When a person reports what they see it isn’t a falsehood even if science says they aren’t accurately describing what they see. It is their “truth”.
It isn’t.
I never said anything about “an error” in the Bible. The error was in bigbagomoney assuming God provided supernatural science information to Moses.
I see naivete as a generator of falsehoods
The mind reasons, the senses know. As a witness, I might know what I saw but it does not mean I understand it.
Similarly, you can complete the entire task of finding a queen of hearts in a deck of cards without using reason. We rely on what we already know and recognition, no need for reason and conclusion when we already know the answer.
Knowledge trumps reason. Such as test results will overturn theory.
Reason (understanding) and knowledge (witnessing) are very different things.
So, to clarify my statement, “I see naivete (reason) as a generator of falsehoods”
I’m sorry but this entire post makes some hugely flawed assumptions…most importantly it ignores the big picture of creation, the fall of man, the need for salvation in our creator himself dying on the cross for our sins (redemption), and the complete anihilation of all sin and this sin blemished planet…them the new heavens and the new earth.
The fact is, evolution cannot be compatible with theism because of the above theme.
Also, you ignored in Genesis on day 6, “God came near to Adam, and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils”
If you read allegory in God coming close and breathing the breath of life into a lifeless body just created…then I doubt you value the importance of CPR IN first Aid!
A story that misses the point about a story being a story and spawns more.
you say that of your own accord…however, i can tell you that biblical scholars who truly study the intimate themes of the Bible recognize that what you say is shortsighted and a very inadequate theology.
I can easily refute the entire TE view doctrinaly from the Bible…its is impossible to reconcile the issues that TEism faces when it attempts to explain away Biblical themes. As Dr Kurt Wise has said on a number of occasions, when one removes pages from the bible (by explaining away in order to fulfill the needs of evolution as a primary source of authority), the book that is left is in tatters. That also becomes the basis for TEism Christianity btw! The reasons that I am an SDA is exactly because this is one of the very few denominations that truly regard ALL scripture as our primary authoritative source of knowledge of our existence. I do not need to explain away anything in the Bible…
every doctrine I hold makes its errors in favour of more rather than less.
I say God literally created Adam…he bent down close and breathed the breath of life into Adams nostrils
Genesis 2:7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
You say, this is just a story…it did not really happen!
In the above illustration, I have made my error in favour of more…you have made your error in favour of detracting (removing) from the creative power of the living God as described by Moses. In the event one of us is wrong…who is most likely to lose their salvation…my view or yours? (I am certain that your choice leaves you are far shakier ground than mine in the event that you are wrong!)
I can insert more illustrations just like the above if you like…there are many of them in the bible that are directly related to salvation. Another mistake is to use the excuse, “all i need is faith”. That argument is also false as for one, it misunderstands the point of the parable of the 10 talents! It also ignores what the apostle James said about faith…
James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
What we make is the “error” of thinking that theology as taught in scriptures will actually comport with reality. You instead force it to comport with recent and reactionary traditions of men.
Lord help us if our salvation depends on correctly parsing and intellectually analyzing origins stories! I can’t imagine any suggestion more antithetical to the very scriptures, much less the Christ that you want us to believe you are at such pains to defend.
But I do know that quite a number of people have walked away from any explicit identification of Christian faith because of so much willingness to deny truth and to pretend that this is justified under some ostensibly Christian banner. Many such ones visit here, and their participation is a testimony to the fruit of such willing blindness to the testimonies of creation itself.
that is not true.
What you are arguing is that one can simply ignore historical Biblical theology in favour of a supposedly better interpretation based on modern science. Unfortunately, this is nothing more than explaining away 4500 years of biblical knowledge and belief. I dissagree (as do an ever increasing number of creation scientists) that this is the correct way to align modern science with the themes of the Bible.
The truth is, YEC’s maintain their biblical theology with modern science. I have no issue with that because it does not throw out thousands of years of biblical understanding and knowledge. It is false to say that because one now uses a computer, that one has better academic abilities…i dont know of any academic that would agree with such a veiw. That is not to say we are not developing a more intimate knowledge of our existence, however, it most certainly does not mean that society is getting better as a result…the bible clearly says that the opposite is going to be the case. So the dilemma is, does one agree with an evolutionary model that maintains we are getting better, or a biblical model that says man will get worse? I will make my error in favour of the latter…because it is by far the safer option in terms of my salvation. I will not stand by with my head in the sand explaining away bible truths in order to make it fit with a deeply flawed secular scientific view.
If you had the time, and were willing to put it to the test, i could very easily show you exactly how and why one cannot turn the creation story, and indeed the first few (and last) books of the bible into an allegory. The remaining biblical truths are so intimately linked with the creation story, that to turn it into an allegory completely destroys the basis for not only the Crucifixion but the need for a Saviour. If we need no Saviour, what on earth do we need a biblical God for exactly?
You say that on Kurt Patrick Wise’s own point missing accord. He is not a disinterested scholar. Once your yearning for meaning is met in myth, all else is lost.
No i say that on a very good knowledge of Biblical theology. I have a very deep interest in ensuring that Biblical theology is my primary source of knowledge of my existence.
I do not care for explaining away very deep biblical theology with shallow statements that do not consider deep theology.
For example (and this is not an illustration specific to TEism)…
I take the 10 commandments as literally as they were spoken. I do not see them as being independent of current Christian morality. People attempt to explain away the specific relevance of all of the 10 commandments in order to avoid keeping the 4th one (the sabbath). The reality is, biblical theology very clearly illustrates that failure to keep the 4th commandment is to ignore the importance of the patience of the saints in Revelation 12 for our salvation. “…here are those who keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus”.
We know that if we “break just one commandment, we break them all” (James 2:10).
This means that without a doubt, anyone who, knowing better, refuses to keep the Sabbath will not go to heaven…they will not be saved. This is an absolutely irrefutable biblical-theological fact! Does this mean that all non-Sabbath keeping Christians will not go to heaven…absolutely not? However, it does mean those who know better almost certainly will not! And since i know better, my conscience tells me i must not fail in this one as i have no excuse…i know better. I have a couple of aunties who are catholic, will they not go to heaven? I would argue at least one of them will be in heaven…she is a wonderful lady who genuinely follows Christ to the best of her knowledge and conscience.
So, if i am to make a mistake on the keeping of the commandments, would i be better to make the error in keeping the commandments, or saying that i don’t need to keep them anymore? Is not the safest option to go too far in my commitment rather than not far enough?
Second, am i denying the greatest commandment “love the Lord thy God and thy neighbor as thyself” by keeping all of the 10 commandments? (before you answer this question, please consider…the first 4 commandments are about loving God, and the second half of them are about loving our neighbor!)
TEism on the other hand is arguing that the first books of the bible are an allagory…they at not a literal historical account. This means that the entire writings of Moses are essentially a fable. This is a worrying side of the fence to sit on…TEism is taking the unsafe approach in favour of first ensuring that Evolution remains the authoritative explanation of our existence…ignoring any Creation Scientist (of which there are an ever increasing number of these days) who very clearly show that secular science is seriously wrong theologically!
I would much rather align my science and biblical theology such that i am not taking unsafe pathways theologically. That is setting ones house apon the rock. The wise man sets his house upon the rock, the foolish man sets his house upon the sand (Matthew 7:24-27)…this is talking about ensuring ones theological foundation is based upon the Bible first as our rock…not scientific theory!
It is not good enough to make the claim (as the founder of this Biologos movement has foolishly done) that we need TEism because evolution is taking Christians away from the gospel. That is a compromise the bible warns us not to make…remember what Samuel said to king Saul…“To obey is better than to sacrifice” (1st Samuel 15:22)
I follow the lead of Joshua… “But as for me and my house , we will serve the Lord ” (Josh. 24:15, NKJV) I will never place any science in front of Bible theology…especially when the Bible theology is so very self evident across its entire spectrum of books. If you choose to dissagree with this statement, then i very much believe that you are in conflict with Bible theology.
Your ‘knowledge’ of biblical [sic] theology is a priori and is therefore no such thing.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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