Material or immaterial persons? [split off from Christian Wisdom in the Biotech Age]

(Mitch Madsen) #21

Could he walk on water with a physical body?

(Christy Hemphill) #22

You are talking about pre-Resurrection and Shawn is talking about post-Resurrection.

(Shawn T Murphy) #23

When the King of Heaven incarnated as man, He was accompanied by His closest angels. They provided the power of God for Him to accomplish all of His miracles. These were the same ones who dissolved His physical body so as no-one could use it for nefarious purposes.

(Mitch Madsen) #24

Yes, I was assuming that Jesus had a physical body pre-Resurrection and that he walked on water with it, which, adhering to known laws, a physical body could no more do than it could walk through doors.

How do we know it wasn’t the angels who gave him the power to walk through doors post-resurrection? Scripture ascribes neither phenomena to angels, nor does it deny that they were involved in either. We know they ministered to our Lord, but the role they played in every miracle we don’t know. Presumably, the Word of God did not have to sub-contract his miracles to the angels he created and upholds by the power of his word. And on those occasions when he did command his angels to effect a miracle, how would that make it any less a suspension of the physical laws he created? I’m just trying to understand on what basis you are making some of your distinctions.

(Matthew Pevarnik) #25

Interestingly enough, at this point and other points @Shawn_Murphy appears to be in line with what Gnostic Christians believed which were condemned as heresy by Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John, as outlined in this lengthy blog series (there are at least 5 parts, there may be more):

(Shawn T Murphy) #26

Dear Mitch, My basis comes from a study of the laws of the spiritual (or ethereal) world and the interaction with the material world. The energy requirements to continuously move a material body through walls is possible, but it would have been just as dangerous as the first time that His angles created His vessel. It is simpler to temporally manifest a spiritual body to interact with His disciples and then return to the ethereal realm between visits.

I have referenced the main work of Walther Hinz where my comments come from regarding Jesus and His angels.

(Shawn T Murphy) #27

Dear Matthew,
I am in line with the Christian church father Origen of Alexandria and I believe everything that Justinian declared anathema in 543 AD. There is some crossover with the Gnostic belief, but that is not my focus.
Best Wishes, Shawn

(Mitchell W McKain) #28

I find it rather curious when Christians use Luke 24 as an excuse to ignore everything Paul says in 1 Cor 15. They make much of the presence of Jesus wounds claiming this shows that Jesus resurrected body was a natural physical body contradicting Paul. Does this mean they think people who are resurrected must have the same physical condition of their corpse, or is it just the last wounds before dying that they would have? Do they believe those who died from beheading will have to carry their heads around in their arms when they are resurrected?

(Mervin Bitikofer) #29

…not to mention martyrs who were burned at the stake!

(Mitchell W McKain) #30

The most sensible understanding is that Jesus had those wounds for the specific purpose of convincing Thomas who said he would not believe unless he saw those wounds. But if Jesus had the wounds for that purpose when WHY would they prove anything else about the nature of Jesus’s resurrected body except that Jesus could appear in whatever condition served His purpose. The fact is that in 1 Cor 15, Paul is directly addressing the question of the nature of the resurrected body and thus I find the efforts to ignore and evade what Paul says here to be a bit shocking when coming from Bible thumpers who claim to get their beliefs only from the Bible.

(Phil) #31

Agreed. Jesus didn’t seem to have much trouble from that pneumothorax from the wound in his side.

(James Stump) closed #32

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