I’m with you, Marta. I think having two daughters opened my eyes on a lot of this, as well as working in an office where my nurses and office manager told me of the problems they faced.
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That’s a good point, and I think it was pondering things like that that eventually helped change my thinking on the topic. I realized that I benefit from feminism every single day of my life. It doesn’t mean I have to agree with every view held by prominent feminists, but I can’t think of any women I know, even the most conservative, that would truly want to live without feminism.
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I used to do this; now I stay out of it.
I work in a very male-dominated industry (firefighting) and like all my male workmates l try very hard to make women feel welcome and esteemed, because although trying should not be necessary, due to historical hangovers, it is.
But, feminism?
Equal pay for equal work, my mother in law was telling us just recently about explicitly gender based wages in her early career. Ridiculous! But, also, fixed around half a century ago.
Then there is a broader issue of -archy. Many feminists seem to view matriarchy as their mission. I suppose philosophically I’m an anarchist, so, I just tend to look poorly upon power-lust no matter who exhibits it or what their wider agenda is. Leadership and management roles are important, but, despite talk of servant leadership, pay scales tell the truth: they are actually about power.
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Yep. CEOs sitting on each other’s boards and voting themselves evil compensation packages, stealing from their workers and the public.
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Those who have been powerless deserve their day in the sun.
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Do some men also seem to view patriarchy as their mission? Yes and way more of them. So the fact that women are no more perfect than our lot doesn’t really effect any actual issue pertaining to the need for equal opportunity, equal pay, respect and safety from abuse of all kinds. It isn’t that the social dynamics of our upbringing as men is all roses but to my mind it isn’t even close to what women deal with.
It isn’t the only issue that matters to me but then I’m not directly effected, kind of like police violence toward black people. Saying that both of those things matter to me and doing what we can is still important for the general good.
Anybody can take any verse and make it extreme
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Great point. This reminds me of GK Chesterton’s critique of some skeptics in “Orthodoxy.” Although some are rather outside my comfort zone. Thanks
Equal pay has not been solved. It goes beyond simple comparisons to broader spectrum of valuation, burdens of care, and in direct reference, faux positional and other intersectional elements done to minimize compensation to affected parties.
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Pay is a big gray area. In some careers women make more. In some careers men make more. In some careers where men make more they also seem to work more hours. In some careers where men make more they tend to be far more popular in their field.
I don’t know the numbers for this. But I imagine if you compared male vs female theologians and who makes more the men would. But I imagine if you got the top paid women and the top paid men in any a theologian field the male probably sold way more books. I imagine, myself included, for every woman theologian I can name I can probably name 10 men. For everyone black theologian I can name I can probably name 30 white theologians.
Go to the rap industry and its opposite concerning race.
Go to Social media influencers with 1,000,000+ followers and I’ll be able to name far more women than men.
It’s all very interesting stuff but goes well beyond the question of submission. Though honestly the edit already kind of changed my focus anyways. I’ll have to start posing my questions from lame paradigms so the countering will answer the question I actually wanted to ask lol.
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Genesis 3 is where a lot of people get their theology that women are meant to submit to men:
“To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.””
Genesis 3:16 NIV
I’ve constantly heard this read as “women want to rule over men, but the men will keep ruling over them as they should.” Fallen women want to have more power than men. This is literally not what this verse says. This is also not how the other consequences are read.
“It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.”
Genesis 3:18 NIV
For Adam, the ground won’t produce as it should, and he toils for his food. To read Eve’s curse in this same light, it’s more like Eve will desire her husband (as she would and should), yet her husband will rule over her. This isn’t a law being put forth that humans are not equal, but that some will attempt to rule over others as the result of a fallen world.
I appreciate any criticism that helps me understand this passage too 
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I was thinking it could also just be a sort of prophecy for them two. Maybe because of what happened they begin havin GB a bad relationship for a while.’maybe until Seth was born and things begin to improve for them. I can imagine Eve feeling like her choices lead to Abel’s death and Adam gas lighting her every time they argued. “ yeah eve what about last time you thought something was a good idea” .
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