- Points on which we agree:
1. Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead.
2. Resurrection is not merely the resuscitation of a dead biological organism. It involves transformation into a glorified mode of existence.
3. Every deceased person undergoes a particular judgment.
4. That judgment definitively determines the person’s eternal destiny.
5. The Last Judgment does not reverse or reconsider that determination.
6. Human beings who remain alive at Christ’s return can undergo transformation without first dying, as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15:51–52. [Agreement in principle]
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- A point that I see no reason not to agree on:
7. The consequences of human actions may continue long after the individuals responsible have died.
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- Undecided Point:
8. People who have already died must await the future general resurrection to receive glorified bodily existence.- You affirm it.
- I question its necessity and am inclined to reject it.
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I think this is very interesting.
I would distinguish between the possibility of someone receiving a glorified body before the general resurrection and the proposition that this is what ordinarily happens to everyone who dies in Christ.
Even Scripture makes a clear distinction between being with Christ after death (Philippians 1:23) and the future resurrection of the body, which Paul associates with Christ’s return (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
So if you mean that God could grant someone a glorified body immediately after death, and that maybe in particular cases this is what happens, I think I would have no problem with that. This proposition wouldn’t contradict any divinely revealed truth (from Scripture or Tradition) , as far as I can tell.
- Points we don’t disagree on:
9. The future Last Judgment necessarily includes the bodily resurrection of all previously deceased persons.
- You affirm this.
- I say that their resurrection may already have occurred
10. The particular judgment is effectively the deceased person’s Last Judgment.
- I think you reject this identification in the traditional Catholic framework.
- I affirm that particular judgement seal’s an individual’s eternal destiny.
That depends on whether you mean that this is what ordinarily happens to those who die in Christ. If so, I would find that problematic, given the connection Scripture establishes between the resurrection of the dead and Christ’s return and the truth of the intermediate state.
If, however, you’re suggesting that God could, for reasons known to Him alone, grant certain individuals the exceptional privilege of receiving their glorified bodies before the general resurrection, that would be a different matter.
Christ, of course, has already risen from the dead in His glorified body.
And we also know that the Theotokos has already been assumed into heavenly glory, body and soul, anticipating the general resurrection. Her bodily glorification is an established doctrine, although the precise manner of her transition from earthly life was not dogmatically defined.
Then there are Elijah and Enoch.
According to 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind. Similarly, Hebrews 11:5 tells us that Enoch was taken away by God without experiencing death.
However, Scripture does5 explicitly establish that either of them underwent resurrection into a glorified body in the same sense as Christ. Strictly speaking, being taken up without dying is not the same thing as rising from the dead.
But we do already have a clear example, in the blessed virgin’s case (Jesus’ case is different, since He is God in the flesh), of bodily glorification preceding the general resurrection.
That doesn’t establish that other individuals have received the same privilege, but it does show that such an anticipation is not inherently impossible.
The question, then, like I said, is whether you’re proposing that this could happen exceptionally, by a special act of God, or that it ordinarily happens to everyone who dies in Christ. I think that distinction matters a lot.
- One of the handful of people who loved me more than I deserved, and not only me, but many, is buried here: Blanche Absalon “Honey” O’Brien Rios Jr.
- On that page, I posted this:
- "But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them. The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds. They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever. They that trust in him, shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love shall rest in him: for grace and peace is to his elect. (Wisdom 3:1-9)As you pass by this memorial, take note and know this: Some of us were hungry and she fed us. Some of us were naked and she clothed us. Some of us were lonely and she befriended us. May none of us whom she served, remember her without giving thanks to God who loved us through her. Be assured: Blanche believed in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, who descended into hell and rose again on the third day, who ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and who will come again to judge the living and the dead. Blanche also believed in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Zei, zei. He lives, she lives.
- She affirmed, as I do the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin.
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- Massimiliano, I notice that you’ve introduced “the truth of the intermediate state” as an additional consideration.
- But isn’t the necessity of that intermediate state precisely one of the things we ought to examine?
- You’ve acknowledged that God could transform a person into glorified bodily existence immediately after death. If an individual’s eternal destiny has already been definitively determined at death, what establishes that the person ordinarily remains disembodied until Christ’s return?
- I’m not claiming that immediate resurrection is the universal rule. I’m questioning what establishes that postponement is the rule, rather than simply an assumption built into the traditional understanding of resurrection.
Christ, of course, has already risen from the dead in His glorified body.
And we also know that the Theotokos has already been assumed into heavenly glory, body and soul, anticipating the general resurrection. Her bodily glorification is an established doctrine, although the precise manner of her transition from earthly life was not dogmatically defined.
Then there are Elijah and Enoch.
According to 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind. Similarly, Hebrews 11:5 tells us that Enoch was taken away by God without experiencing death.
However, Scripture does5 explicitly establish that either of them underwent resurrection into a glorified body in the same sense as Christ. Strictly speaking, being taken up without dying is not the same thing as rising from the dead.
But we do already have a clear example, in the Blessed Virgin’s case (Jesus’ case is different, since He is God in the flesh), of bodily glorification preceding the general resurrection.
That doesn’t establish that other individuals have received the same privilege, but it does show that such an anticipation is not inherently impossible.
The question, then, like I said, is whether you’re proposing that this could happen exceptionally, by a special act of God, or that it ordinarily happens to everyone who dies in Christ. I think that distinction matters a lot.
This is beautiful.
That makes three of us. Although I think this is one of the many instances in which God has left enough light for those who wish to believe, and enough darkness for those who don’t.
I don’t know why there is also a copy of the previous message on this one.
I only see one.
- Absolutely.
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Well, Terry, primarily Scripture itself. Scripture explicitly connects the resurrection of the dead with Christ’s return and the end of the age. Beyond that, we also have the teaching of the Magisterium, although I would argue that Scripture is already sufficiently clear on this point.
Of course, this does not mean that God cannot grant certain individuals the exceptional privilege of receiving a glorified body before the general resurrection. He has already done so in the case of the Mother of God.
However, I would certainly not extend that possibility to everyone as a general rule.
To say that God can grant this privilege to certain individuals is one thing. To claim that this is what ordinarily happens to everyone who dies in Christ is something else entirely. The latter proposition would raise serious theological difficulties, particularly in light of Scripture’s explicit association of the resurrection of the dead with Christ’s return.
- Let’s return to Elijah for a moment. Elijah was taken into heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kings 2:11), sometime in the ninth century BC. Approximately 850–900 years later, he appeared alongside Moses and Jesus at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1–8). My question is: What kind of body did Elijah possess at the Transfiguration? Was it his original biological body, preserved for nearly nine centuries without aging or decomposition? Had his body been transformed into a different mode of existence when he was taken into heaven? Was his appearance a temporary bodily manifestation? Or was the entire encounter visionary, as Matthew 17:9 might suggest?
- Scripture doesn’t explicitly tell us.
- But there’s another complication. Moses had died (Deuteronomy 34:5–6), whereas Elijah had been taken into heaven without a recorded death. Nevertheless, both appeared with Jesus, and Luke 9:30–31 describes them as appearing in glory and speaking with him.
- I recognize that this does not establish that either possessed a resurrected, glorified body in precisely the same sense as the risen Christ. But if Elijah could appear in glory nearly nine centuries after leaving earthly life, why should we presume that he spent those centuries inhabiting an ordinary, un-transformed biological body?
- You have already acknowledged that bodily glorification before the general resurrection is possible, citing Mary’s Assumption as an example within Catholic doctrine. Doesn’t Elijah’s appearance at the Transfiguration give us another reason to question whether bodily transformation must ordinarily await the Last Judgment?
- I’m not suggesting that Elijah proves universal resurrection at death. I’m questioning whether the traditional chronology is as necessarily uniform as your argument seems to require.
I think the explicit scriptural connection between the resurrection of the dead and Christ’s return presents a very powerful obstacle to that interpretation.
2 Corinthians 5:6–8: Paul distinguishes between being at home in the body and being with the Lord. Indeed, he expresses a preference for leaving the body and being with Christ.
Luke 23:43: Jesus promises the repentant thief that he will be with Him in Paradise that very day, even though the general resurrection remains a future event.
Revelation 6:9–11: John describes the souls of the martyrs in heaven, conscious and awaiting the fulfillment of God’s judgment. Although the imagery is apocalyptic, it is consistent with an intermediate state preceding the final consummation. And it shows that the author Revelation clearly believed in the intermediate state, and Revelation is still a divinely inspired book.
And then we have the passages that explicitly associate bodily resurrection with Christ’s return:
1 Corinthians 15:22–23: Paul establishes an order: Christ is the firstfruits, followed by those who belong to Him at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:51–53: Paul associates the transformation of mortal bodies and the resurrection of the dead with the last trumpet.
1 Thessalonians 4:13–17: Paul explicitly describes the dead in Christ rising when the Lord descends from heaven.
I think the Scripture provides an evidence in this case that is basically impossible to ignore.
I think there is something very important to keep in mind here: Paul explicitly identifies Christ as the firstfruits of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:20–23), while Colossians 1:18 describes Him as the firstborn from the dead.
Since Elijah appeared (and I fully believe he actually appeared ) at the Transfiguration before Christ’s death and resurrection, I would be very hesitant to conclude that he had already received the definitive glorification associated with the resurrection of the dead, because Paul establishes a clear order: Christ as the firstfruits, followed by those who belong to Him at His coming.
There is also another fact to consider: the righteous who died before Christ’s redemptive work didn’t ordinarily enter immediately into the beatific vision. Rather, they awaited the Redeemer in a state traditionally associated with Abraham’s bosom, where they enjoyed peace, consolation, and the hope of their eventual entrance into heavenly glory. They were already justified by God’s grace, but hadn’t yet attained the fullness of beatitude, Christ’s death and resurrection was the event yhwt opened Heaven to the righteous who had preceded Him.
Elijah’s case is admittedly exceptional, since Scripture describes his assumption without recording his death. It is therefore possible that he enjoyed some extraordinary state of blessedness and communion with God before Christ’s resurrection, but that wouldn’t necessarily entail either the beatific vision or possession of the definitively glorified body associated with the resurrection of the dead. I would actually exclude that he possessed the glorified body because otherwise Christ wouldn’t have been the firstfruits of the Resurrection.I think Scripture strongly implies that Christ’s glorified state after the Resurrection was something entirely unprecedented in the history of creation, which would be very hard to reconcile with the notion that Elijah had already attained that same state of bodily glorification.