Logic, reason and Christianity

God already knew the cost of creating free moral agents since the foundation of the world. It was a price He was willing to pay anyway.

“but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, ”

1Peter 1.v19-22

That doesn’t mean the solution is ‘automatic’ we have to respond to His grace, in fact Jesus clearly condemn a lukewarm relationship with Him.

If I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting that the Church somehow forged or manipulated Origen’s writings to make him appear loyal to its authority and open to correction, when in reality he supposedly considered himself above the Church and entitled to correct it rather than the other way around.

Have I understood you correctly?

Because if that’s what you’re suggesting, you’re making a rather extraordinary accusation, and I would certainly expect some equally extraordinary evidence to support it.

Otherwise, you’re essentially accusing the Church of Christ of deliberately falsifying historical documents simply because their contents don’t fit your interpretation. I wouldn’t exactly call that a shining example of Christian charity, let alone intellectual honesty. I would call that even less a healthy spiritual attitude.

But since you’ve asked for the original Greek, let’s take a look at what Origen actually wrote. I think you’ll find it rather interesting.

Origen, Homilies on Jeremiah, V, 14 — Original Greek text : “εἰσὶν γε καὶ ἄλλοι λόγοι παρὰ τὸν λόγον τὸν τῆς ἀληθείας, παρὰ τὸν λόγον τὸν τῆς ἐκκλησίας. περιτέμνονται τὰ ἤθη καὶ τὴν καρδίαν ὥς τε εἰπεῖν σωφρονίζουσιν οἱ φιλοσοφοῦντες, σωφρονίζουσιν οἱ ἀπὸ τῶν αἱρέσεων καὶ γίνεται αὐτοῖς περιτομή. ἀλλὰ περιτομὴ μέν, οὐ τῷ θεῷ δέ· περιτομὴ γὰρ λόγῳ ψευδεῖ παρʼ ἐκείνοις γίνεται. ὅταν δὲ κατὰ τὸν ἐκκλησιαστικὸν κανόνα, κατὰ τὴν πρόθεσιν τῆς ὑγιοῦς διδασκαλίας κοινωνικὸς ᾐς, οὐ περιτέτμησαι μόνον, ἀλλὰ περιτέτμησαι »τῷ θεῷ«. »Περιτμήθητε« οὐν τῷ θεῷ ὑμῶν, καὶ περιτέμεσθε τὴν ἀκροβυστίαν τῆς καρδίας ὑμῶν.”

English translation: “There are indeed other teachings besides the teaching of truth, besides the teaching of the Church. Philosophers, too, circumcise their conduct and their hearts, so to speak, by practicing self-discipline. Those who belong to heretical groups likewise practice self-discipline, and thus a kind of circumcision takes place among them.

Yet this circumcision is not directed toward God, for among them it is accomplished through false teaching. But when you are in communion according to the rule of the Church and the purpose of sound doctrine, you are not merely circumcised; you are circumcised unto God. Therefore, “Be circumcised unto your God, and circumcise the foreskin of your hearts.”

Scholarly reference:

Origen, Homiliae in Ieremiam, V, 14, in Origenes Werke, vol. III, edited by Erich Klostermann, Die griechischen christlichen Schriftsteller (GCS 6), Leipzig, 1901, pp. 43–44.

Verifiable source: Original Greek text — Origen, Homilies on Jeremiah, V, 14.

Origen distinguishes the teaching of the Church (τὸν λόγον τὸν τῆς ἐκκλησίας) from the teachings of heretical groups. More importantly, he identifies communion according to the ecclesiastical rule (κατὰ τὸν ἐκκλησιαστικὸν κανόνα) and sound doctrine as the condition under which spiritual purification is genuinely directed toward God.

This provides direct textual evidence of the importance Origen attached to the Church’s doctrinal authority.

If you’re claiming that Origen was something of a Luther avant la lettre (not in the sense that he held the same theological views as Luther, but in the sense that he supposedly believed an individual could set himself above the Church, correct her teachings, and refuse to submit to her divinely instituted authority) then what evidence can you offer to substantiate that claim?

Why?

Grace need no validation.

I suppose it might depend on what you think the forgiveness achieves.

Richard

If I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting that the Church somehow forged or manipulated Origen’s writings to make him appear loyal to its authority and open to correction, when in reality he supposedly considered himself above the Church and entitled to correct it rather than the other way around.

Have I understood you correctly?

Because if that’s what you’re suggesting, you’re making a rather extraordinary accusation, and I would certainly expect some equally extraordinary evidence to support it.

Otherwise, you’re essentially accusing the Church of Christ of deliberately falsifying historical documents simply because their contents don’t fit your interpretation. And you you are proposing a deliberately false account of Origen’s thoughts on top of that.

But, since you want the original texts, let’s go through them.

Origen, Homilies on Jeremiah, V, 14 — Original Greek text : “εἰσὶν γε καὶ ἄλλοι λόγοι παρὰ τὸν λόγον τὸν τῆς ἀληθείας, παρὰ τὸν λόγον τὸν τῆς ἐκκλησίας. περιτέμνονται τὰ ἤθη καὶ τὴν καρδίαν ὥς τε εἰπεῖν σωφρονίζουσιν οἱ φιλοσοφοῦντες, σωφρονίζουσιν οἱ ἀπὸ τῶν αἱρέσεων καὶ γίνεται αὐτοῖς περιτομή. ἀλλὰ περιτομὴ μέν, οὐ τῷ θεῷ δέ· περιτομὴ γὰρ λόγῳ ψευδεῖ παρʼ ἐκείνοις γίνεται. ὅταν δὲ κατὰ τὸν ἐκκλησιαστικὸν κανόνα, κατὰ τὴν πρόθεσιν τῆς ὑγιοῦς διδασκαλίας κοινωνικὸς ᾐς, οὐ περιτέτμησαι μόνον, ἀλλὰ περιτέτμησαι »τῷ θεῷ«. »Περιτμήθητε« οὐν τῷ θεῷ ὑμῶν, καὶ περιτέμεσθε τὴν ἀκροβυστίαν τῆς καρδίας ὑμῶν.” *

English translation: “There are indeed other teachings besides the teaching of truth, besides the teaching of the Church. Philosophers, too, circumcise their conduct and their hearts, so to speak, by practicing self-discipline. Those who belong to heretical groups likewise practice self-discipline, and thus a kind of circumcision takes place among them.

Yet this circumcision is not directed toward God, for among them it is accomplished through false teaching. But when you are in communion according to the rule of the Church and the purpose of sound doctrine, you are not merely circumcised; you are circumcised unto God. Therefore, “Be circumcised unto your God, and circumcise the foreskin of your hearts.”

Scholarly reference:

Origen, Homiliae in Ieremiam, V, 14, in Origenes Werke, vol. III, edited by Erich Klostermann, Die griechischen christlichen Schriftsteller (GCS 6), Leipzig, 1901, pp. 43–44.

Verifiable source: Original Greek text — Origen, Homilies on Jeremiah, V, 14.

Origen distinguishes the teaching of the Church (τὸν λόγον τὸν τῆς ἐκκλησίας) from the teachings of heretical groups. More importantly, he identifies communion according to the ecclesiastical rule (κατὰ τὸν ἐκκλησιαστικὸν κανόνα) and sound doctrine as the condition under which spiritual purification is genuinely directed toward God.

This provides direct textual evidence of the importance Origen attributed to the Church’s doctrinal authority.

If you claim that Origen was a Luther ante-litteram (not in the sense that he proposed the same doctrines proposed by Luther, I’m talking about the attitude towards the Church of Christ and the belief that the individual can correct the Church and shouldn’t submit to her divinely instituted authority), what evidences do you have that back up your claim?

*You can verify the original Greek text here:

Scroll down past the English translation until you find the collapsible section labeled “Greek.” Click on it to expand the section and display the original Greek text.

The passage begins with εἰσὶν γε καὶ ἄλλοι λόγοι and contains Origen’s explicit references to the teaching of the Church and the ecclesiastical rule.

So, dear Shawn, I expect you to provide substantial evidence to back up your claims. Otherwise, you risk exposing yourself as a slanderer and a liar, not merely in the eyes of others, but before God Himself.

And I would imagine that slandering the Church Christ founded isn’t exactly the wisest course of action, spiritually speaking.

Just saying.

  • Shawn, your references to G. Vale Owen and Beatrice Brunner prompted me to consider a broader question about corroboration.

I’ve come across Volume 15 (1933) of The National Spiritualist, published by the National Spiritualist Association of the United States. It contains numerous reports of spirit communications, teachings attributed to spirits, and accounts of mediums. Interestingly, it also contains a favorable review of Johannes Greber’s Communication with the Spirit World.

The National Spiritualist (1933)

  • If agreement among independently reported spirit communications constitutes corroboration, wouldn’t the extensive spiritualist literature potentially provide an enormous body of corroborating testimony?
  • And if so, by what criteria do we distinguish genuinely independent corroboration from the repetition of teachings already circulating within the spiritualist movement? How should we evaluate purported spirit communications that contradict one another?
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It clearly is indeed a gnostic fascination and here we can clearly see the problem with your view of reincarnation starting with the very verses you quoted.

Every text you listed moves in one direction. The Word goes down, coming on this earth first, He dies the death we deserved then went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3.18-20). Not one of them says a spirit came back up through a birth like you’re positing.

The gospel was preached also to them that are dead, so that also undermine your claim that God could only be fair to the people of the past (including amoral vessels) if reincarnation is true. The verse you used proves this is not a necessity.

So, no new body and no new life on earth. The descent is God going after the lost, it was never the lost climbing back out through new bodies generations after generations.

He does want them back. He will have all men to be saved since He is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3.9). That was never the dispute, the dispute is who the fallen are and how the return happens but your take clearly is unbiblical.

You’re conflating the destiny of men with the destiny of fallen angels. Peter made sure to clarify the audience himself, the spirits in prison are the ones who disobeyed in the days of Noah (see 1 Peter 3.v20). That is the crowd of Jude 1.v6, the angels kept in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. The text never says the prison emptied.

Lord Jesus-Christ, the one who holds the keys of hell and of death, showed which way the return goes. The return the Scriptures describes is at the last trump not through a succession of births, even the Creed you lean on will not suffice. You take descended into hell from the middle and leave the ends behind meaning the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting.

Will you now talk of the gospel of thomas? Because the canonical gospel is about God coming down, the shepherd leaving the ninety-nine going after the one. Your system is a counter gospel that turn things upside down, the soul climbing back to heaven through one life after another. That is not the story these texts tell, it is the story the gnostics told and naming it biblically ‘based’ does not make it so.

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  • You’ve asked for my logical explanations of three matters:
  1. The billions of human beings who have never heard of Jesus.

    • I distinguish between salvation through Jesus Christ and salvation requiring explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ during one’s earthly lifetime. Acts 4:12 and John 14:6 affirm the former; neither explicitly establishes the latter.
    • I see no logical necessity for concluding that God excludes from salvation everyone who, through no fault of their own, never heard of Jesus.
  2. The unequal and undeserved suffering of humanity.

    • This is the problem of evil, and I do not pretend to possess a complete explanation for every instance of suffering. But neither does reincarnation automatically explain it. Jesus himself rejected the assumption that a man’s blindness must have resulted from his own sin or his parents’ sin (John 9:1–3).
    • If reincarnation explains suffering as the consequence of wrongdoing in previous lives, how is punishment for conduct of which the sufferer has no memory an expression of justice?
  3. Thousands of Christian sects.

    • Disagreement among Christians demonstrates disagreement among Christians. It does not, by itself, establish the truth or falsity of Christianity. Nor is reincarnation a remedy for doctrinal disagreement. Those who believe in reincarnation also disagree about its nature, purpose, and consequences.

All three questions deserve serious consideration. But I am not persuaded that reincarnation is logically necessary to answer any of them.

What I would like to understand is how reincarnation provides an explanation for these three problems that is both logically coherent and supported by evidence that reincarnation actually occurs.

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Most excellently said.

P.s

I would add another question to this

And even if we could somehow establish that punishing someone for actions they cannot even remember is a genuine expression of justice, how are we supposed to feel genuine compassion and mercy toward those who suffer?

If a child is starving in some remote African village solely because, in a previous life, he was someone like Peter Scully, how on God’s green earth am I supposed to feel genuine empathy for him? After all, according to this reasoning, his suffering would be a deserved punishment for his past actions.

At best, I might be motivated to help him for entirely self-serving reasons, such as earning a few more “karma points,” so to speak. But what happens to genuine mercy? To real compassion? To the kind of empathy that moves us to relieve another person’s suffering simply because we recognize their humanity and are touched by their pain?

Where does any of that fit into a worldview in which even the suffering of an innocent child is ultimately explained away as deserved punishment for sins committed in a life he cannot even remember?

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“Nobody but a rabbi would have dared describe the 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust as the reincarnated souls of Jewish sinners. Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi Ovadia Yosef did just that last weekend, bringing down a rain of criticism. But although his controversial remarks speak to the theological dilemma the Holocaust poses for ultra-Orthodox Jews, they are also an eloquent comment on the depth of tribal enmity among the citizens of the Jewish state. Iraqi-born Rabbi Yosef is also the spiritual leader of Israel’s third largest party, Shas, an ultra-Orthodox party representing Sephardic Jews, who immigrated to Israel from Arab countries and suffered racist treatment at the hands of the Ashkenazi (of European origin) elite.”

In short, uncle Adolf was merely the vessel of karmic justice.

Shouldn’t we erupt in a good old fashioned sieg heil, just for good measure?

It is not me accusing the church, it is Jesus.

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” (Matthew 23:9-13)

The church that destroyed the works of Origen did exactly what Jesus warned against. The Romans violated every commandment and led the empire away from heaven, with their inquisition and many wars.

You are nothing but a liar and a slanderer. I have cited Origen’s words from the original Greek texts that prove what I’m saying about his ecclesiology and the fact that he would never have put himself above the Church and you keep lying after having been exposed. You are no disciple of Jesus Christ.

You should know who is the master of lies and the deceiver. I think you know him only too well. How about renouncing him?

You claimed that you wanted the original Greek. I have shown you the original Greek Logic, reason and Christianity - #276 by 1Cor15.54

How about stopping with your lies and your slanders?

You did not give a logical explanation of you belief. I said that reincarnation is the mechanism which allows all the fallen souls the same chances to know Jesus and become perfect as God created us. (Matt 5:48)

According to what kind of utterly twisted “logic” suffering for the sins of what was, for all intents and purposes, another person, with another life, other memories, another face and body, other interests and relationships, maybe even another gender or, according to some interpretations, even another species (there are currents that believe that you can be reincarnated in an animal) would be “logic” in any way, shape or form?

It does in fact need our cooperation because it is also possible to prefer darkness and sin.

“And this is the judgment, the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed” John 3.v19-20

What forgiveness achieves is a living bond between God and the one forgiven. I don’t believe a one sided bond would be called love, and a love that cannot be refused would not be love. Yes, we also have to deny the self for God so that the Holy Spirit could make us holy. Grace isn’t a license for iniquity as Jude wrote of those turning the grace of our God into lewdness.

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Quoting Jesus is slander?

The original Greek that you quoted do not disprove the restoration nor reincarnation. All they say is there are liars.

Jesus says you have to repay your debts to the last farthing and become perfect as God is perfect. The human body is just a vessel for the immortal spirit. It is the spirit that must become perfect, not the body.

Like I said time and time again, Origen never proposed his teachings as uniquely authoritative or beyond correction from the Church.

So do you realize that he himself proposed his doctrines as his own personal theology and not as teachings that could somehow correct the Church?

What was he saying when he wrote “There are indeed other teachings besides the teaching of truth, besides the teaching of the Church” ?

What did he mean by this? “But when you are in communion according to the rule of the Church and the purpose of sound doctrine, you are not merely circumcised; you are circumcised unto God.”

Does he sound like someone who, if corrected formally and dogmatically by the Church, would have left her and established a schismatic community?

FALSE. He clearly spoke about the fact that the teachings of the Church are the truth and he said that being in communion according to the rule of the Church and the purpose of sound doctrine means being circumcised unto God.

These words have a clear meaning that you can’t escape from, I’m sorry.

Which is why from the earliest centuries, Christians have prayed and made offers for the souls of the departed whom they believed were undergoing purification in the afterlife, asking God to relieve their suffering.

But they still remained themselves.

He produced over 6000 works and copied them multiple times and sent them throughout the realm and you think he did this for his personal theology?

There was no authoritative, unified church at the time of Origen.

Here again it’s the gnostics that taught the body is evil. In the gospel the body is the temple of God and the temple is not discarded, it is resurrected. Honestly you should read a few chapters of 1 Corinthians because there is no way you could say any of that is biblical. It is not the spirit alone that is made perfect, the whole man is sanctified (spirit, soul and body).

We believe in the bodily resurrection not in morphing into different entities. Jesus rose up from the dead with a glorified body, not as a new entity that’s why He said touch and see. Why? Because ‘a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have’ (Luke 24.v39).

By the way, the last farthing was not left to us to repay life after life. It is finished, the handwriting of our debts was nailed to His cross so please tell me if you’re genuine, or if you’re actively trying to distort Scriptures on purpose. There’s no way you could defend those things with Scriptural backing.

There was one and the body of Christ is unified through the Holy Spirit, not by human institutions