Ken Ham vs. Bill Nye Debate

[Mazrocon]

@jon_doe
@jahiddle

I agree mostly with Jon, here, in the sense where Christian priorities should lie. I think Paul was saying the same thing about Jews who were putting undue importance on the physical act of circumcision — they “added” that too the “salvation requirements” onto the Gentiles. In today’s world I think similar things are happening when it comes to Origin Doctrines and it sends the message to the outside world (as well as the Christian) that, “Part of being a Christian is believing in a young earth” etc.,

We should know where foundations properly lie … and when we realize that we can move onto other things such as specific doctrines. I think it’s similar to what Jesus said about “hanging all the laws of the prophets on those two: (i.e., love thy neighbor as thyself and love God)”. Jesus wasn’t saying the the other laws weren’t important … but merely noting the futility of bickering back and forth between those laws, when the primary foundation laws (such as the Law of Love) are distant from us.

But doctrines, of course, still have their place. An Evolutionary Creationist for instance sees thing in a different manner than that of a Young Earth Creationist. We still believe in the same Jesus Christ … but it nonetheless affects many things. Not just in how differing Christians relate to one another … but how non-Christians are introduced to the Christian Faith. Do I need to believe in literal 6 day creation to be a true Christian? How does one interpret the Bible? How does interpret Nature? etc., etc.,

-Tim

[Relates (Roger A. Sawtelle)]

@TimothyHicks

Paul did not say circumcision was an unnecessary added requirement for Gentiles. He said that circumcision was an act that undid the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Circumcision represented the Law-Torah which is the antithesis of Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. Those people who today place faith in the Bible which contains the Torah above faith in Jesus Christ and salvation by grace are constructing the same kind of legalist religion that Paul and Jesus rejected.

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

@Relates

Last time we discussed I thought you said our evangelical emphasis should be on Praise, rather than Love. Did I misunderstand?

Evidently. I think it was more that we were talking about God’s mission on earth, which I think is more tied to God receiving the glory due his name than humans being fulfilled and loving each other well. But I think God gets the glory due his name when his people embody his love and justice on earth. I’m not anti-love, Roger!

[Relates (Roger A. Sawtelle)]

@Christy

But I think God gets the glory due his name when his people embody his love and justice on earth. I’m not anti-love, Roger!

@Christy

Thank you for clearly that up. You had me fooled.

Telling the truth in love and giving God the glory for God’s wondrously and ingenuously forming life is part of our Christian mission is it not.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@Relates

Paul did not say circumcision was an unnecessary added requirement for Gentiles. He said that circumcision was an act that undid the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

And it was this one assertion from Paul that convinced me that he wasn’t much of
a theologian - - he basically divided Jewish Christians from Jews for eternity with
that proclamation (since uncircumcised males could no longer participate in Passover).

George

[jon_doe]

@TimothyHicks and everyone else

Thanks for the conversation, I gained some better understanding of your perspectives and was moved more than once to introspection. If this thread is still active when I get back I hope to responding to some questions I just can’t get to. I’m traveling 1200 miles and back again to remove my sister, nephew,and niece from an abusive situation in the morning so I’ll be unable to add much to the thread.

If any of you are the sort to pray for a stranger, there are two kids (8 and 14) who are really going to need Gods grace.

Thank you.

[Mazrocon]

@jon_doe

If any of you are the sort to pray for a stranger, there are two kids (8 and 14) who are really going to need Gods grace.

Thank you.

Sorry to hear this, Jon. I will keep them in my thoughts and prayers.

Blessings, and have a safe flight.

-Tim

[Mazrocon]

@gbrooks9

And it was this one assertion from Paul that convinced me that he wasn’t much of a theologian - - he basically divided Jewish Christians from Jews for eternity with that proclamation (since uncircumcised males could no longer participate in Passover).

Hey George.

Considering Paul wrote most of the New Testament, and is one of the very great examples for Christians to abide too (humble, admits his faults, “dies daily”) — I don’t know how many Christians would feel about the claim “He wasn’t much of a theologian.” — I hope that doesn’t translate into the New Testaments of our Bibles… “It isn’t much of a theology”…?

As far as the specific claim, many Christians consider themselves to be “Jews”, since it’s defined as, “Those who follows the will of the Father is his Children”. The “seeds of Abraham” are defined as the “children of promise” (in the analogy of the promised seed Isaac).

Some thoughts to think about…

-Tim

[Relates (Roger A. Sawtelle)]

@jon_doe

Thank you for sharing.

God speed and protection.

You are part of my family and now they are too.

My prayers are with you.

[Relates (Roger A. Sawtelle)]

@gbrooks9

And it was this one assertion from Paul that convinced me that he wasn’t much of a theologian - - he basically divided Jewish Christians from Jews for eternity with that proclamation

@gbrooks9

Paul was a great theologian because he accepted that God’s ways were not his ways. Maybe you could learn from him.

P.S. There is no separation between Jew and Gentile, Greek and Barbarian, in the Passover Seder known are the Lord’s Supper as least as practiced in my denomination.

[beaglelady]

God bless you, Jon. Hope you get everyone out okay. Be sure to remove the pets also so the abuser can’t turn on them.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

My brothers… to provide more background to my views on Paul, I should
have added, Paul was a GREAT communicator… a GREAT professor of
Christian rhetoric.

But his theology was flawed.

I sincerely doubt that Jesus would say that honoring the Old Testament
commandment to for males to be circumcised was harmful to one’s
Christian standing.

George Brooks

[Joao]

[quote=“jon_doe, post:158, topic:3204”]
This is a forum thread, how many footnotes are required to post an opinion statement?[/quote]
Jon, you showed up here and blasted, “I find the official views of BioLogos to be antithetical to Christian teachings…”

Most importantly, why are you so antagonistic?

Reread what you wrote and I quoted above. It’s hard to be much more antagonistic (and arrogant) than that.

I’ve tried to be honest and as revealing as this medium allows regarding what I believe and why.

I’m having trouble seeing, “Scientifically speaking, I don’t find the evidence does a very good job of supporting naturalistic evolution” as trying to be honest.

If you disagree, let’s discuss evidence, which you have yet to do. You’ve only conflated what people say with evidence, apparently so that you can promote a false equivalence between YECism and science. If that’s not why, please explain why you opened by explicitly claiming familiarity with the evidence when you don’t seem to be capable of citing or discussing any.

Then you piled it deeper with, “…because I view the evidence through a worldview that God is so there is no need to assume naturalism where it cannot be found, and I continue to look at the evidence to see if it points elsewhere.”

What evidence have you ever viewed? What evidence do you “continue to look at”? You have yet to cite a single speck of evidence. All you cited was hearsay. When will you cite evidence?

I’ve tried to convey my position that young earth/old earth aren’t even what makes a Christian.

Then why did you lead with, “I find the official views of BioLogos to be antithetical to Christian teachings…”?

So what is your endgame?

Evidence. The truth placed in front of you by God Himself.

Where are you trying to lead me?

To the evidence, the place where you already claimed to be.

Are you a Christian with doctrins of origin like Biologos, or are you a Darwinian looking to antagonize?

Why not engage with God’s evidence instead of engaging in tribalism?

[quote]What position are you even trying to defend?
[/quote]God speaks to us through the evidence. You only seem to be interested in the word of man.

[Patrick]

How many times does it need to be said, creationism and ID are not science and therefore do not belong in science class even in parochial schools. NCSE promotes science education. Science education is not Darwinian propaganda, it is genetics, it is biology, it is modern cosmology.

[Patrick]

@Eddie

ID is not asking to be put into science class.

And rightfully so as ID has nothing to do with science.

@Eddie

Modern cosmology contains a very large proportion of speculation. And based on the science news – every year or so we read about how there has been a revolution in thinking about dark matter, dark energy, the Big Bang, etc. – cosmology is not nearly stable enough as a science to be taught in high school science class. The solid sciences are physical chemistry, organic chemistry, basic macroscopic physics, basic cell biology, basic genetics, physical geography, etc. – and these are what should be taught in high school science class – not speculative material about origins.

Not so. Cosmoslogy after t=1 picosecond is very solid. CMB after Planck 2015 is very much ready and is being taught in high school physics. Big Bang Neuclosynthesis (Hydrogen, Helium, Lithium) is solid science, so is star generation of all other atoms is now being taught in high school. Higgs Boson gving particles their mass also solid. Strong, weak, electromagnetic forces solid. Standard model of particle physics and cosmoslogy very mainstream science now. Relativity (both special and general) is being taught with gravity as a spacetime distortion with classical Newton mechanics as an approximation. Solar system formation as well as complex molecules (Water) in space and asteriods. You won’t recognize high school biology, chemistry and physics books in most good high schools. That is why parents are doing their children a disservice teaching them non-science like Ken Ham’s blatant anti-science YEC.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@Eddie

The ID people, by contrast, don’t want any references to creationism or the Bible in science class. They have repeatedly stated that what they want is a more thorough and critical analysis of evolutionary theory, in which students are exposed to criticism of the standard Darwinian narrative –

My personal preference is to leave explorations of Intelligent Design to groups
like BioLogos … I don’t see any plus to having public schools teaching any
kind of religious ideas.

George Brooks