Well, you see, I provide references for you proving from your own Scriptures, that a belief based on NO FACTS whatsoever is possible.
And no, it was not resurrection of Jesus. Jesus did not even die by that point. John the Baptist was just recently killed by Herod.
I thought I already addressed these points. 1) you have not demonstrated that the early Christians, especially Jewish Christians, were dying for the belief in the Resurrection. As was shown already, these belivers were persecuted for rejecting the Law of Moses and circumcison. Paul himself states this in Galatians! And, when the belief in the resurrection from the dead is mentioned in Acts, the Pharisees agree with Paul!!! The picture that is painted by the apologists on this point is a fantasy. 2) the early church was so diverse that it’s not clear what movement even Jesus gave rise to.
But this is ultimately irrelevant. The point is, that like with the belief in John’s resurrection, belief in Jesus’ resurrection could have been started for the wrong reasons!!!
And, knowing what we know about the human nature, and the nature in general, it is more likely that people started believing in Jesus’ resurrection for the wrong reasons, than that Jesus actually rose from the dead![quote=“Swamidass, post:89, topic:35602”]
Moreover, Jesus = John was an impossible rumor to sustain. John the Baptist was Jesus’s cousin, they were family members. They were born within 9 months of each other. They lived at the same time, and their public ministries overlapped for at least one full year. They had public conversations with one another, and John’s disciples even communicated messages between John and Jesus. There is no way any informed person would believe that Jesus = John. Herod did because he was ignorant and guilty, not because he followed John.
Well, what I find curious, is that Jesus tells the disciples to not tell anyone about him, after Peter tells him the people are confused. Just so you know, I think the Gospels are stories. I agree with you that it is highly improbable that the people would confuse dead John for living Jesus or that the people would think John rose from the dead in the person of Jesus. I agree with you. BUT… it is a Christian Scripture that is making these claims.
Now, here is a perfect case of a believer unwilling to consider their faith may be wrong. You see, I have nothing to win or lose with my arguments, but you have a religion that just must be true, at all cost. So, you make a claim that the Bible says that only Herod thought John was raised in the person of Jesus. I showed you how this is incorrect, that even the people thought this too, but you are not swayed. You are looking for other holes in my arguments. But I am not saying anything that is not written in the Gospels! All of my arguments come from there.
(side note, I became Jesus Mythicist after realizing that Jesus saying… “do not tell this to anyone” is likely a cover up, written by a later writer to explain the fact that no one seems to know about this Jesus. They only know about John the Baptist. Yes, it’s a theory, I can’t prove this is the case, but it makes sense to me when looking at it from the totality of the Bible
And, btw, Christian apologists stay away from John’s resurrection claims too. It turns their apologetic on it’s head. Chrsitian apologists claim that a Jewish person would never believe in a bodily resurrection unless it was an end of time and everyone was being raised for the judgment. Well, John’s resurrection claim, as recorded by the Gospelers contradicts this!!!
So, you have Jewish people who, as expected, believe in the resurrection of John for the false reasons. IF these people would start being killed for their belief, you would claim that John must have risen too, because people don’t just hold wrong convictions that are baseless and that they can verify? I’m sorry, but I see this all the time. My dad, who is a pastor, keeps telling me (after I show him Jesus was wrong about his 2nd coming, after I show him the prayer promises are false) that there is no other option. Must believe in Jesus no matter what. There are Christians who today reject evolution in favor of Noah’s Arc! But the science is right there for everyone to see, right?
If there is an apparition from heaven, of a Muslim Prophet Mohammad, who would tell them to convert, Christians TODAY would interpret this as Satan trying to deceive them!!! Beliefs are never about the evidence and in this they are the opposite of science. In my humble opinion, of course.
All the best.