Joseph L. Graves and do Americans today believe that content of character is more important than skin color?

I was in Zurich, CH, in 2003 near the beginning of the unpopular (with good reason) second Iraq war. We were visiting an ancient church as tourists and I heard someone speaking English. I said to them “I hear American English!” They were quick to point out that it was Canadian English, not “American” English.


When I looked at this before I wasn’t really paying so much attention to the word “justice” and was only thinking about goodness in general.

Otherwise I would answer… obviously NO! I don’t think justice has much to do with evolution, but in human history injustice is pervasive. Frankly, I think the evidence points more to God expecting people to learn the value of justice however long it may take. And I am reminded of Isaiah chapter one where we see God’s disappointment that His influence in religion doesn’t seem to be improving the dedication of people to things such as justice. And then there is the book Job which seems to be attacking the notion that God upholds justice in the world. Taken with Isaiah, I think the logical conclusion is that God wants us to learn the value of justice for ourselves. And I suspect that if God upholds justice then like the eloi of H.G. Well’s time machine we become little more than sheep with no ability to understand and seek justice ourselves.

Mitchell, it’s actually heartening to know that somewhere here, this is fairly unknown.
However, it’s real. It’s cultural for the most part, though. Unless, of course you were in the south or depending on an FHA loan sometime before the anti-discrimination laws for housing.
Growing up near Detroit, born the year of “the” riot and having lived in a blue-and-white-collar, mostly white suburb, I think I’ve always “known” it, but couldn’t always articulate it. I was very aware that “mulatto” kids I knew “weren’t white.”
I think I became consciously aware of it, when I was in my first African-American Lit class. No one is more aware of it than someone whose destiny as a free or enslaved person is determined by the “law” or someone who can “pass” (as white) but understands the consequences, if they are ever found out.
I work with a lot of genealogists. Their work is often powerfully affected by this “law” in different ways, depending on time period and geography.

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Yes, but…
Unless a person with any African ancestry could pass as white (at great danger to themselves) they could never “hide” within the culture.
Overseas, I could pretty accurately affect the physical culture around me in how I dressed, carried myself and the like. I could blend in until I opened my mouth, and even at that time, my German was good enough that I wasn’t obviously American, just generically foreign. My friend Joel, who was black and visited with the glee club, while I was in Germany, had no such luxury. I was horrified at what I saw happen. And since I was with Joel, suddenly my German that had been quite servicable for 7 months with some of my less familiar dorm mates became incomprehensible. Joel understood perfectly what was happening, and just gracioiusly steered me away.

While there has (always) been a variety of types of discrimination here, race-based is the most heinous (in my opinion) because it is utterly inescapable.


This topic make me go to read Letter from Birmingham Jail, by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. When I end it, I will came back here to read all responses.

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Yeah and when I was one of only two white kids in my entire school, I somehow couldn’t hide either. Why couldn’t I pass myself off as one of their crowd, I wonder? LOL

…but frankly, I didn’t see much difference in an all white school. You can be targeted for some other reason just trivial as the color of your skin. And I really don’t think there was any hiding in that case either.

Of course this is true.
It becomes vastly different, when it is an entire population where ever they are within the in which country they live. And add on to that laws.
While your point is valid, it is too small and personal to compare to the historic experiences of millions of black Americans.


I think that you are confusing the Absolute God of the philosophers with the Loving God of the Bible. God knows how to teach and help people without making them helpless. I do not think that Wells is a great theologian or that his books are prophetic.

  1. Why are you confusing Gid and “religion?” God is a God of meaning and order, right? That is why God gave nature order and that is why God gives human lives order. When humans upset the natural order, we pay a price. When humans abuse our human order, we pay the cost of sin. God’s order is not arbitrary. .

  2. Of course goodness and cooperation has its own natural reward. That is what it means for God to guide evolution. Social species are more successful than others. Sadly there are some people who still believe in survival of the fittest, meaning the strongest or the smartest.

God made climate change, ecology, to prevent the earth system from getting into a rut…

Thank you as always for the dialog.

Why are you confusing a question with a statement? The whole point of the question and answer is to make the distinction between these two.

Your attempt to force my questions through the fine filter of your theology is absurd. And thus the difficulty with your following statements are a result. I am not required to think the same way you do, even if my conclusions are ultimately the same.

Meaning and order are highly subjective. So even if such things do apply to God, it is doubtful that anyone’s notion of these things are as applicable or that the conclusions they draw from such a claim are valid.

No I do not think that the laws of nature are motivated by some OCD compulsion for order. There is a reason, but that is not it. Frankly I think the laws of nature are a necessity for the process of life and the existence of free will.

That conclusion is so highly subjective that the claim is dubious to the point of meaninglessness.

I doubt that I can credit some imaginary “natural order” that you think human beings can upset. Seems to me the fact that consequences follow actions is part of the natural order.

I believe that sin consists of self-destructive habits, so the consequences follow quite logically. For example, blaming others for your own mistakes is a self-destructive habit which results in a failure to learn from your mistakes.

I see… So your notion of God guiding evolution includes the natural order He created.

Yes. And not only is there always someone stronger or smarter eventually, but (more) cooperative groups can achieve a strength and intelligence which no individual (or less cooperative group) can achieve. If they view love and compassion as a weakness, then the weakness of their own alliances is ultimately a greater weakness.

To an unintended meaning of the question, obviously not. The white supremacist ruling class are content with their own character in its oppression of those with darker skin colour.

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The ruling class didn’t get to be by being humble.

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Say it Randy, say it. Creating a rainbow is great, but uncommon wealth is justice denied.

To be sure you are not required to think the way I do, nor am I required to think the way you do. However, most people would agree that either God created the universe, or the universe appeared on its own.

If God created the universe, then God have it the structure, meaning, and purpose that it has. If the universe created itself, t5hen it would have no structure, meaning, or purpose, unless the universe can think, in which case the universe would be God.

I think that the evidence points to the fact that God created the Big Bang, even if many Christians do not agree. This means that the structure found in the universe that is the basis of science cones from the Logos, Who is Jesus Christ. That logically means that God determined the laws of nature in such a way to produce life and freewill, and so cooperation is the best basis for evolutionary survival, as you say.

Sin would not be wrong if it were not destructive. God made evil self-destructive, but he problem is that the damage affects everyone, not just those responsible. That is why love is so important.

Job is not about justice. It is about whether the just suffer or not. At the end Job was rewarded for his honesty and faith, so justice was sustained…

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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