Jordan Peterson's contribution to Evolutionary Fall Theology

I hope we got the book thing sorted out. Anyways, since you contested six points, I will respond to them one by one.

Point one. You objected to the idea of an exilic Hebrew writer sitting down with 20 or so cuneiform texts and copy/pasting from them all. I am so glad you raised this, because there is clear evidence that Genesis 1-11 has a primary literary relationship to just one text, the Atrahasis Epic. In fact the number of texts required to account for all the indications of literary intersection in Genesis 1-11 is very small.

(a) Atrahasis Epic
(b) Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta
(c) Sumerian King List

This substantiates the exilic authorship hypothesis, rather than detracting from it.

Sorry, that’s not quite enough. You’ll also need to throw the 4) Enuma Elish in there, which is certainly influencing the primeval history. Furthermore, you also think that Genesis directly borrowed a phrase from 5) Eridu Genesis, “breath of life”, and so you’d contradict yourself by failing to enter it here. Is that all? Nope. Remember when Adam and Eve eat from the tree? Here’s an inscription dating to the late 3rd millennium BC.

This is a Mesopotamian seal dating to the late 3rd millennium BC, as I explained earlier. It’s in the British Museum right now. It depicts a man and a women sitting on two sides of a sacred tree, reaching for its fruit to eat. There are snakes on either side of the man and women. Sound reminiscent? Here, we have a clear ancient near eastern influence on the primeval story of Adam and Eve that’s not actually known from any single near eastern composition (or, to my mind, any at all). That means this must have been either a less significant story when it came to ancient compositions that is now lost to us, and predominantly was known through oral teaching and culture, and influenced the Hebrews through oral transmission as a story known in the cultural milieu of the ancient near east. That’s 6. The Epic of Gilgamesh probably also has some details that directly influenced the primeval history with elements not found in the aforementioned text, such as the creation of a human from clay or something. So, if we also count the Epic of Gilgamesh (which scholar doesn’t think that this story had a role), at the bare minimum, we have 7 stories already. So, it looks like at the bare minimum, you think some Hebrew around 500 BC was sitting in his chair with seven tablets in front of him (well, probably a lot more than seven since it would quite frankly take more than seven just to contain the Epic of Gilgamesh), cutting and pasting from each one of these as he goes. That’s doesn’t sound convincing for me. A much, much more reasonable explanation is that there is no literary relationship and the author of the primeval history simply knew these stories because everyone in his time knew these stories, and he was transforming them in an allegorical fashion to drive home whatever he believed. We’ve already seen how that tablet I posted a picture of above probably entered into Hebrew knowledge through oral tradition, since you probably can’t name significant near eastern composition predating the primeval history, or one near eastern tradition at all predating the primeval history, containing that entire fruit thing with Adam and Eve (or whoever are the names of those other characters). I can actually demonstrate other oral influences on the Old Testament that have no literary parallels, such as, for example, Daniel (Dan’il) from Ezekiel 14:14, a man from Ugaritic mythology thought to be a man of high antiquity (Friedman mentions this in his book Exodus in fact, pg. 184).

Secondly, this is not how literary influence actually works. You don’t find a single text in all ancient near eastern compositions, find one that provides a good parallel, and say “uh huh! this is the only one at work, and so we only need 7!” In reality, that almost certainly is not the only one at work for any given feature of the primeval history. These near eastern traditions spread through countless tellings and retellings in numerous ancient compositions, retold time and time again. See the Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature, which contains over 400 Sumerian compositions alone (not every one of them is translated from Sumerian to English though, to my frustration). The fact is that ideas like the flood permeated through the ancient near east from numerous sources, as I will show.

Point two. You claim that the following stories “appear in hundreds of different near eastern compositions”.

(a) flood
(b) genealogies
(c) creation from primordial chaos
(d) eating fruit from a sacred tree
(e) confusion of languages

Please list five texts for each of these stories. That shouldn’t be difficult given all the hundreds you have to choose from.

Perhaps “hundreds” is an exaggeration, to be honest, but I’m adamant that I’d be able to find tens that mentions at least one of those five elements. And remember, the few hundred works we have today are the ones that survived – no doubt there were hundreds, perhaps thousands more written in the history of the pre-Israelite of Sumer, Akkad, Ugarit, Babylon, Assyria, etc. Strangely, you actually ended up mentioning four flood texts yourself for me in your comment – Eridu Genesis, Atrahasis, Epic of Gilgamesh, Sumerian King List. Throw in the Enuma Elish and that’s five. As for the languages, there is in fact another account of the confusion probably much more closely related to the one in Genesis than the Enermakar story. It’s contained in Assyrian fragments discovered over a century ago, go to pg. 160 on this rather old book documenting the finding and translation to see where the following text comes from (it’s fragmentary but there’s enough):

Translation: … them? the father … of him, his heart was evil, … against the father of all the gods was wicked … of him, his heart was evil … Babylon brought to subjection, [small] and great he confounded their speech. Their strong place (tower) all the day they founded, to their strong place in the night entirely he made an end. In his anger also word thus he poured out: [to] scatter abroad he set his face he gave this? … command, their counsel was confused … the course he broke … fixed the sanctuary …

I won’t post the even more fragmentary fragment 2. Here, however, we have an old Assyrian story talking about a tower at Babylon (to note, the biblical story is the Tower of Babylon, not Tower of “Babel”, since the same word translated into Babel here is translated always to Babylon elsewhere in the OT) where the people of the Earth are scattered and where the deity has “confounded their speech.” According to one source I read as well, there may be an etymological connection between this story and the primeval history, making it more closesly related to Genesis than Enermakar (or however it’s spelled).

But there’s an even BIGGER problem! Even only taking a look at the literary texts we have and ignoring the Adam and Eve seal parallel, with our minimum six sources that influenced the primeval history, we must remember that they aren’t all written in the same language. The Epic of Atrahasis is Akkadian. So is Gilgamesh. Enuma Elish is Babylonian. The others, I think, are Sumerian. So, in your view, apparently we have a scribe living in Israel, perhaps 500 BC with a bunch of tablets on his desk who can read Akkadian (almsot extinct during and after the exile), Babylonian, Sumerian (practically a dead language, so he must have worked particularly hard on that one) and Hebrew itself. That’s out of bounds. This is definitely a product of the ancient near eastern cultural milieu, there couldn’t possibly have been such a scribe anytime in the entire exilic world who knew all these languages (let alone a group of Hebrews each having learned it all together with a bunch of tablets on their desk copying and pasting from this or that one).

Point three. You claimed Eridu Genesis doesn’t use the phrase “breath of life”, while the Bible’s Genesis does. In actual fact the Bible’s Genesis doesn’t have a word for “of” in the phrase translated “breath of life”. It uses two words for “life breath”, just as the Eridu Genesis uses two words for “life breath” (I note the source to which you linked didn’t actually make the argument you’re making). So the correspondence is very strong.

You also claimed this “breath of life” phrase in Genesis, is also found in Job. But when we turn to the two passages you cited (Job 12:10; 33:4), we don’t actually find that either of them use the term “life breath/breath of life”. In Genesis 2:8 the phrase is neshamah chayyim (life breath, breath of life), but in Job 12:10 the phrase is ruah kal besar (life/breath of all humans), and in Job 33:4 the two phrases are ruah el (breath of God), and neshamah shadadai (breath of the Almighty). Neither of these verses uses the distinctive phrase neshamah chayyim (life breath, breath of life), which we find in Genesis 2:7; 7:22. Only one of them even uses one of the Hebrew words in this phrase.

Eridu Genesis never says “breath of life.” My source clearly says “by the life’s breath of heaven, by the life’s breath of earth”. That’s about as similiar to the Genesis phrase, if not less similar, than what we see in Job. In Job, Eridu Genesis, and the primeval history, we’re not seeing a copy and paste of each other in a single instance, we’re seeing a common near eastern motif of the “breath of life” or “breath of earth” or quite frankly “breath of anythnig that has to do with a deity or nature.” For example, the Epic of Gilgamesh uses the phrase “breath of wind.” This is just a common motif at the time, there’s no copying happening whatsoever.

Point four. Now you have finally found raqia in Strong’s (just as I said it was), and you have acknowledged that it is derived from raqa (just as I said it was). But you say “raqa is not a ‘form’ of raqia (or vice versa), raqa is a different word altogether”. This is just a confusion about how words are defined. As I said previously (and as you have now acknowledged), raqia is derived from the older word raqa. The word raqa is a verb, and the word raqia is a noun. Of course they are two different words in the sense that they are spelled differently and you cannot use them as synonyms, but at the same time raqia is the noun form of raqa, just like “speed” is a noun, and “speedily” is the adverbial form of the noun, while at the same time they are different words. It doesn’t really matter if you want to deny that “speedily” is the adverbial form of “speed”, the point remains the same.

At the very least, we’ll agree that raqia derives from raqa. So, what’s the proof that this derivation happened after the exile? Well, “it isn’t mentioned before the exile!” which sounds like an argument from silence. Anyways, do you know any actual scholars who make this claim that raqia derived during this period? There are numerous inscriptions that are pre-exilic in Hebrew, but I’m quite sure neither of us has (or are able to) investigate them and see whether or not they contain the term. For this argument, I see no serious defense of the claim until it’s been vetted by a good scholar and is uncontroversial among academics. Indeed, what would Richard Friedman say, who very much dates the primeval history to the pre-exilic period? Would he agree that the term was only derived during the exile and later? Or would he tell you that the entire primeval history in general is written in archaic Hebrew that didn’t exist anymore during the exile and later periods and so is pre-exilic?

Point five. I did not say that if my first two arguments for the dating of Genesis 1-11 are correct then the others are also. I pointed out the inconsistency of accepting the first two points, while rejecting subsequent points which use the same reasoning and form of evidence. As I have said before, the force of those two points is that they establish a terminus ad quo, which is essential to establishing the case for exilic authorship.

This is simply false, the same evidence establishing the 1000 BC and 930 BC dates fails to substantiate any of the other points. Same reasoning? I’m only seeing similar types of arguments based on entirely different premises. You seriously aren’t saying “because two of my arguments are correct, then all seven are”, are you? If so, you’d not only be guilty of incorrect reasoning, but equivocation.

As for point six, I didn’t ask for a source for exilic dating of Exodus 11 per se, but rather one from Friedman since you said “Friedman dates it after the exile”. I have not seen this produced. You have demonstrated a significant number of scholars consider it exilic/post-exilic, but this is not because they think it’s a later addition, your sources show that’s because they think P in general is exilic/post-exilic. But, by that reasoning, most scholars also think J is pre-exilic, which is the second source for Genesis 1-11. So, following this logic to its conclusion, we’d have the J parts of Genesis 1-11 are pre-exilic and the P parts are exilic/post-exilic. That might work but I’d have to look at it a little more. But that leads to another point.

Let’s say, for a second, raqia is an exilic/post-exilic word. I did a quick check, and every time the word raqia appears in Genesis 1-11, it appears in the P parts. It never appears in J, which scholarship mainly holds as pre-exilic. So … what now? Truly, it looks as if your reasoning only leads to where scholarship has been all this time: J is pre-exilic and P is exilic. I think J is pre-exilic but I also think P might be also pre-exilic, not quite sure. At the very least, this is what the sum of all your arguments leads to. Your response also had nothing to say regarding the Song of Moses, which you originally claimed Friedman thought of as exilic but I demonsrated he clearly thinks of it as pre-exilic. I did a second check, and found that Genesis 11:8-9, the spreading out of the nations that Deuteronomy 32:8 certainly does refer to, is part of J. So this argument proves J is pre-exilic (which was known anyways). This looks almost like a stalemate, I don’t know what else to add on for now. I’ll think and, for the meanwhile, wait for your response for my other points as well.

Firstly,

Oh really?

Okay. I am very sorry that I wrote “Your tolerance for novel ideas is pretty low!” And I’m equally sorry that I wrote about my lack of tolerance of people " rejecting everythiing that isn’t the status quo."

Hallelujuah!

Egypt ceased being a major influence in Canaan shortly after the arrival of the Sea People, especially the Pelest (now referred to as the Philistines). This means the whole time frame of the Old Testament is thrown into doubt.

Egypt’s power started declining at this point, but their influence certainly continued, and it remained a greater influence on Israel than any of its other surrounding nations until Assyria conquered it. For example, around 922 BC, Egypt destroyed Israel yet again and ended the united monarchy! Egypt wasn’t done at this point.

@Korvexius, you have demonstrated great zeal in defending the idea that many Old Testament names were influenced by Egyptian culture. And I can only assume you champion this idea because this fits your view that the Hebrew spent 200 years (or was it 400 years) in the land of Egypt.

I have no clue how long they stayed in Egypt, but I do consider Egyptian names as another indicator of the exodus (but perhaps insufficient on its own to demonstrate it). Whether or not one accepts this argument for the exodus from Egyptian names among the Hebrews, that many Hebrews themselves have Egyptian names and that there are many Egyptian loanwords in the OT is altogether uncontroversial in scholarship. Here is some literature on the subject:

Thomas O. Lambdin, “Egyptian Loan Words in the Old Testament,” JAOS 73
(1953): 145–55; Yoshiyuki Muchiki, Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords in North-West
Semitic (SBLDS 173; Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 1999); cf. Aaron D. Rubin,
“Egyptian Loanwords,” in Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics (ed. Geoffrey
Khan; 4 vols.; Leiden: Brill, 2013), 1.793–94

And no, I didn’t come up with that list myself. I found it in a footnote in a paper I was reading that documented some of the work on Egyptian words and names in the OT. The only question is whether or not you take them as evidence for the exodus, that they exist is solid.

And yet, in that process, the Hebrew supposedly leave Egypt without adopting Egyptian circumcision practices, and without the greatest cultural export Egypt ever produced: the hope and optimism for an immortal existence in some otherworldly realm. There is really the tiniest trace of these Egyptian ideals in the Old Testament.

I agree that Egyptian gods themselves failed to influence the Hebrews, a win for Judaism, Christianity and every other religion to find hope in the exodus out of Egypt. According to Exodus 12:12, God executed His judgements on the gods of Egypt. However, I see Egyptian influence in literally every other sector of the exodus and wilderness narratives of the OT – whether it comes to geography, literature, onomastics, etc. As I remarked earlier as well, there is good reason to believe that these Egyptian influences emerged among the Israelite’s in the late second millennium BC, not during the Ptolemaic dynasties after the Pentateuch had already been composed.

@ManiacalVesalius,

Well, no kidding. Quite insufficient on its own to demonstrate.

Do you think it would be more likely that Names and Only Names would be influenced if they were only living as a “captive people” behind enemy lines, much like Poland existed behind the iron curtain?

When I was working in Afghanistan, one of my local workers told me the shirt he was wearing was a “chamise”. I don’t think he lived in France or Greece at all.

@ManiacalVesalius

Without an ability for you to sift through the writings with a text-critical view, you really have no idea when any of this material was written.

When you read Roman mythology, and you get to the story about Romulus and Remus, do you assume that this story was written first? And then someone wrote about the Sabine nation that contended against Rome?

Do you really think Exodus was written before Judges?

Do you think that the patriarchal part of Chronicles was written before Samuel?

I talk about the Egyptian optimism for the afterlife and you start talking about Egyptian gods. The Greeks didn’t adopt any of Egyptian gods… but they still were inspired by Egyptian thoughts regarding the afterlife !!!

If the Old Testament was the foundation of the New Testament theme of resurrection … you’d think there would be some kind of embrace of the general topic, wouldn’t you ? … with all that powerful Egyptian influence?

Without an ability for you to sift through the writings with a text-critical view, you really have no idea when any of this material was written.

I don’t think I have a problem with text-critical analysis. To recall, you made this claim against me because of my disassociation with priesthood and Moses. But, funnily enough, I had renounced that claim before you even accused me of not having a text-critical view. So, really, I don’t think this claim against me has any basis and I think I’m doing just fine. I’m not coming up with these conclusions myself, I cited my sources and revealed exactly where my claims come from and what the evidence is.

When you read Roman mythology, and you get to the story about Romulus and Remus, do you assume that this story was written first? And then someone wrote about the Sabine nation that contended against Rome?

I’ve read Plutarch’s bios on Romulus, and I simply think this is a mistaken comparison. Romulus story has no hint of authenticity, originates too many centuries after the events (our earliest sources on the exodus, the Song of Deborah in Judges 5 and Song of Miriam (Exodus 15:1-18) dates, scholars believe in fact, to the very late second millennium BC (12th century or so). It has many indicators of authenticity. Romulus is a patently mythological figure, and he’s not even an event or person you can put down in history, he’s a deity! This comparison won’t fly by.

Do you really think Exodus was written before Judges?

Well, Judges is part of the Deuteronomistic History (DtrH), which I place its composition c. 650 - 600 BC (like most scholars). I’m not aware of the different authors who make up Exodus, it could be J, E, and P. There’s also D but he didn’t write anything in Exodus. I think J, E, and P are pre-exilic, whereas with Deuteronomy, I’m more uncertain.

Do you think that the patriarchal part of Chronicles was written before Samuel?

Of course not. Samuel, also part of the DtrH, is pre-exilic (although by a little bit). Chronicles is obviously not even exilic, it’s post-exilic and copies a LOT from Kings (also part of the DtrH).

I talk about the Egyptian optimism for the afterlife and you start talking about Egyptian gods.The Greeks didn’t adopt any of Egyptian gods… but they still were inspired by Egyptian thoughts regarding the afterlife !!!

I don’t know anything about Greek belief in the afterlife so I’d like you to point me to something to read. Sorry, I’m more on the history side than the religious side of ancient civilizations at this point, something unfortunate.

Do you think it would be more likely that Names and Only Names would be influenced if they were only living as a “captive people” behind enemy lines, much like Poland existed behind the iron curtain?

Ugh, yes. I see no trouble in understanding how the geography, literary style, onomastics, and most things in the exodus and wilderness narratives could be influenced by Egyptian factors with the sole exception of religion. It appears as though the Hebrews were especially resistent to accepting the foreign gods, or at least the ones that won out in history.

I’m going to reply to the rest later, but this stood out as particularly important because it shows the amount of background reading you still need to do.

  1. The Atrahasis Epic was written in Akkadian cuneiform.
  2. The Epic of Gilamesh is found in both Assyrian cuneiform and Akkadian cuneiform.
  3. Enuma Elish was written in Akkadian cuneiform.
  4. The Eridu Genesis was written in Akkadian cuneiform.
  5. The Sumerian King List was written in Akkadian cuneiform.

I could continue, but I hope you get the point. There is a lot of important background information about the Ancient Near East that you need to be aware of in order to discuss this topic in detail.

@ManiacalVesalius

Ahhh… so, you are totally up-to-speed on text-critical analysis… so where was all that nuanced perception when you first made your awful pronouncement that Moses couldn’t be named a "Ms/Priest, because he had no priestly authority?

How did that idea even enter the stream of consciousness?

And, really, it wasn’t just this one thing that pushed me to the conclusion … it was your whole approach to how you proved things with text…

@ManiacalVesalius

I love it when people get all certain about legends… as you seem to be getting…

So … Samson… you think he is more real than Romulus?

You think there was really a man with super-human strength that his magical hair gave him?

You don’t know that this is a solar-god myth that has been down-graded to a “hero” in the
interests of monotheism?

@ManiacalVesalius

I’m not going to say everything in this page is correct, because I haven’t had the time to read the whole thing…

but it will certainly give you a taste of what you don’t know…

@ManiacalVesalius

And so… nothing I’ve explained to you has made a wit of difference in your head?

If you could read cuneiform in the Babylonian period, aside for some words dropping out from Sumeria, and some new words coming in from Akkadians and Assyrians and Babylonians… you could pretty much read anything the Sumerians wrote!

And if you were formally trained, you could sound it out in your native langugage (Semitic), or you could sound it out in the Sumerian tongue.

This wasn’t a game show for the scribes. This was the sacred language of their ancestors… it was like Hebrew to the Rabbis and Latin to the Vatican priests.

Why do you struggle with this so much?

I’m no expert, but this is, for example, the first line of the Wikipedia page on the Sumerian King List:

“The Sumerian King List is an ancient stone tablet originally recorded in the Sumerian language, listing kings of Sumer (ancient southern Iraq) from Sumerian and neighboring dynasties, their supposed reign lengths, and the locations of the kingship.”

Well, it does say “originally”. I’m not aware of translations of the Sumerian King List, although I am aware of translations of the Epic of Gilgamesh from Sumerian to Akkadian. You’re right about Enuma Elish having an Akkadian cuneiform form, and I already wrote that Atrahasis does. Besides my troubles with the Sumerian King List, I had some trouble with Eridu Genesis. All my sources told me it was written originally Sumerian, and when I read this paper, my suspicions were confirmed, but lo’ and behold the paper also explains that a fragment was found with Akkadian cuneiform translation in Ashurbanipal’s library. I’ll look for a paper to read on the Sumerian King List tomorrow, if you have a source telling me about it’s Akkadian translation (to which I have not discovered with a bit of searching, which doesn’t necessarily mean anything), then I’ll presume you’ll argue that our Hebrew scribe was using entirely Akkadian sources. For whatever its worth, my suspicions were also confirmed about the phrase “breath of life”, as the translation in this paper reads from the sixth column of the tablet:

“You here have sworn by the life’s breath of heaven, the lifes breath of earth, that he is verily allied with you yourself, you there, An and Enlil, have sworn by lifes breath of heaven, the lifes breath of earth, that he is allied with you.”

In this text, it appears though the lifes breath is assosiated with heaven and earth, yet another common motif in ancient near eastern texts. I would cite one of these texts that I read earlier today, but by utter mere fantastical coincidence, I came across this line in the Sumerian composition of Enki and Ninjursanga:

"Enki cried out: “By the life’s breath of heaven I adjure you.” (from lines 69-74)

What a coincidence! The same phrase “life’s breath of heaven”! This seems to note to me that although the breath of life is an ancient near eastern motif, in Sumerian, a more common “life’s breath of heaven” phrase is around. If this appeared in Genesis, perhaps that would be real evidence of literary dependence. I just had to note all this in a response before tomorrow, I couldn’t possibly imagine forgetting this. I do note, as a concluding remark, that the phrase “breath of life” does end up occurring in Eridu Genesis. Thoughts on this? Tomorrow we’ll see.

Ahhh… so, you are totally up-to-speed on text-critical analysis… so where was all that nuanced perception when you first made your awful pronouncement that Moses couldn’t be named a "Ms/Priest, because he had no priestly authority?

My original reasoning was straightforward: even though he was head of the Levite’s, he wasn’t an actual priest himself. There’s no reason debating or discussing this point any further since it’s now irrelevant.

So … Samson… you think he is more real than Romulus?

I had written up a comment on this but then quickly deleted it, since this is drawing away the conversation from the original point. Romulus is not comparable to the exodus. Clear as that. And thanks for the link on Greek afterlife beliefs.

It isn’t an Akkadian translation. You’re being misled by what you read because you don’t understand how cuneiform worked. This is how it worked.

  1. The Sumerians had a spoken language (Sumerian), and a written form of that language (Sumerian cuneiform).
  2. The written form of that language went through several stages of development.
  3. By the third millennium BCE this cuneiform script was being used across the Ancient Near East. The Akkadians used Sumerian cuneiform to write their own language of Akkadian. Other cultures did the same, using the script to write their own languages. This is why we find the same cuneiform being used by the Assyrians, and the Paleo-Syrians and Canaanites at Ebla.
  4. When Akkadian scribes copied older Sumerian texts, they wrote them in the same cuneiform which the Sumerians used, which was the same cuneiform which the Akkadians themselves used for their own texts. There were differences in pronunciation, and some differences in vocabulary and grammar, and sometimes Akkadian scribes would write Sumerian texts with Akkadian language features (which is why you sometimes see references to “Akkadian cuneiform”). But the texts were readable by anyone who knew Sumerian cuneiform, because it was the same writing system.

This is naturally comprehensible to me, since I live in a Chinese speaking country. The spoken language of Chinese consists of numerous dialects, all with completely different pronunciation. However, they all use the same written script. Even though a Cantonese dialect speaker, a Mandarin dialect speaker, a Fujian dialect speaker, and a Pinghua dialect speaker will find each other’s spoken dialects incomprehensible, when they write their own dialects they all use the same characters, and each individual can read each word. I’ll give you an example.

您好我很高興認識您。

This means “Hello, I am very pleased to meet you”. It would be pronounced differently by each different dialect speaker, but if they read this sentence they would all understand exactly what it meant. There is no “translation” going on here. They are all writing in the Chinese script. Sometimes they might write a little more idiomatically, but what they write can still be read by other dialect speakers who are literate in the characters.

This is exactly how Sumerian cuneiform worked. It was used by the Akkadians, the Paleo-Syrians and Canaanites, the Assyrians, and the Babylonians. Even though their spoken languages differed, they all used the same Sumerian cuneiform. So any scribe literate in Sumerian could read any of these texts. This is precisely why these texts were able to keep being copied throughout the centuries. They were always being copied in the same script, by people literate in the same script. This may make it clearer for you.

“The invention of cuneiform, and its early application to the notation of language as such, first happened within one linguistic community: the Sumerian speakers. However, the close connection between these languages, and the early demise of Sumerian as a spoken language on street level, made for a virtual bilingualism of the writing system itself. In other words, early 'Sumerian” cuneiform could always be ‘read’ in Akkadian as well. Therefore much Sumerian material in the older periods is virtually bilingual.", H.L. Herman L. J. Vantisphout, “The Twin Tongues,” in All Those Nations --: Cultural Encounters Within and with the Near East : Studies Presented to Hans Drijvers at the Occasion of His Sixty-Fifth Birthday by Colleagues and Students, ed. Han J. W. Drijvers et al. (BRILL, 1999), 154.

And again.

“This implies that in a way all writing can be understood in the two languages. The signs are bilingual; consequently, the users of the signs - the scribes - are bilingual.”, H.L. Herman L. J. Vantisphout, “The Twin Tongues,” in All Those Nations --: Cultural Encounters Within and with the Near East : Studies Presented to Hans Drijvers at the Occasion of His Sixty-Fifth Birthday by Colleagues and Students, ed. Han J. W. Drijvers et al. (BRILL, 1999), 154.

It is really important to understand what you are reading. To give another example, what you are saying is like saying Isaac Newton in seventeenth century England, could never have read the works of John Philoponus (sixth century, Alexandria in Egypt), Bonaventura (thirteenth century, Italy), Buridan (thirteenth century, France), and Bacon (thirteenth century, England), unless he knew Egyptian, thirteenth century Italian, thirteenth century French, and thirteenth century English.

In reality, all of these authors wrote in Latin, so Newton could read all of them simply because he could read Latin. He didn’t need to learn four different languages. This is one of the reasons why knowledge was so well preserved and shared from the medieval to the Renaissance eras; Latin enabled scholars across Europe and the Middle East to read and write in a common language, which was incredibly important.

No they weren’t. Firstly, you claimed “Eridu Genesis never says “breath of life””. I have already shown you this isn’t true, but here we go again.

"And An and Enlil after hono[ring him]
were granting him life like a god’s,
were making lasting breath of life, like a god’s,
descend into him.
That day they made Ziusudra,
preserver, as king, of the name of the small
animals and the seed of mankind,
live toward the east over the mountains,
in Mount Dilmun.

(Eridu Genesis vi, 255–260)", Helge S. Kvanvig, Primeval History: Babylonian, Biblical, and Enochic. An Intertextual Reading (2011), 86.

Secondly, “life’s breath” or “breath of life” means exactly that. It is a distinct phrase on its own, which is why it can be appended to other phrases.

Well, Sumerian and Akkadian cuneiform aren’t identical, but I’ll accept that the Sumerian logograms had similar meaning in both Sumerian and Akkadian. So, I’ll accept this. This was, of course, one of my later arguments, and I had something more substantial.

You go back to the phrase “breath of life”, and claim that you’ve “shown” it was used earlier. Actually, you didn’t, it appears this is the first time you posted it. But even before you posted it, I already remarked that the phrase “breath of life” was in Eridu Genesis. This was the last thing I wrote in my latest response:

I do note, as a concluding remark, that the phrase “breath of life” does end up occurring in Eridu Genesis. Thoughts on this? Tomorrow we’ll see.

I noted this since it was clearly in the paper I referred to in yesterdays latter comment on pg. 525. Anyways, it looks like we’ve cleared all of this up. Now let’s move back to the debate, where I must note that you did not address a number of my points.

Firstly, by saying “life’s breath” is the same as “breath of life”, you seem to be taking the former phrase out of its context. The full phrase is “life’s breath of heaven”. However, I suppose a possible translation would be “the breath of life of heaven” if you wanted to get particular. In that sense, they are the same phrases. And in that sense, I can definitively prove that the concept/phrase of the breath of life was a general, near eastern motif, and not a particular phrase to Eridu Genesis which Genesis 1-11 snatched up. We’ve seen Job contains this motif, and to add on, the post-exilic book of Lamentations also contains it (4:20), as well as Revelation in the New Testament (11:11). Furthermore, in my previous comment, I noted that my research brought me up to this phrase being used in yet another Sumerian composition. Since you did not respond to this, I will repeat it: I came across this line in the Sumerian composition of Enki and Ninjursanga:

"Enki cried out: “By the life’s breath of heaven I adjure you.” (from lines 69-74)

This text predates Eridu Genesis. The motif is also found in the Sumerian story of Lugalbanda in the mountain cave story, because when someone died in this text, the story continued:

When they lifted his neck, there was no breath there any longer. His brothers, his friends took counsel with one another (towards the end of lines 87-122)

So, when the person lost his life, this was known because “there was no breath any longer”. This is a clear play on the breath of life motif in yet another composition. I could find more texts (in fact I have another one I found that I will not post in this comment since I’ve made my point), but once we consider Eridu Genesis and Genesis has it on top of all these other texts stretching over a 2,000 year period that I found in a short period of time, it’s most evident that the breath of life simply is just a common near eastern motif, and the fact that Genesis shares this three word phrase (three words in English, probably two in the original languages) with Eridu Genesis doesn’t prove any evidence of literary dependence whatsoever, it was simply a common motif at the time. I’ve also provided evidence of other stories in Genesis being frequently known in the ancient near eastern mileu, by showing, for example, another (Assyrian) story documenting the confusion of the languages besides Enermakar, and I will re-paste the text (pg. 160 in this old book shows it):

Translation: … them? the father … of him, his heart was evil, … against the father of all the gods was wicked … of him, his heart was evil … Babylon brought to subjection, [small] and great he confounded their speech. Their strong place (tower) all the day they founded, to their strong place in the night entirely he made an end. In his anger also word thus he poured out: [to] scatter abroad he set his face he gave this? … command, their counsel was confused … the course he broke … fixed the sanctuary …

So, I have to go back to a point I made evident earlier: we have identified at least, at a very minimum, seven stories that contain different stories that have enterred into Genesis. I must suggest that a number of scholars also think the Sumerian story of Enki and Ninhursag, which I’ve cited earlir, was yet another one of these texts. But at the very least, we have seven, and to contain all seven of them, you need a lot more then seven tablets (and remember, one of them isn’t even contained in literary form, the Adam and Eve one is known to us from a seal and therefore got into Genesis through oral culture). This really brings up the question, was the author of Genesis 1-11 sitting at his desk with a little scissors with a bunch of tablets on his desk cutting out bit by bit from each different text what he wanted? Or, was he, more obviously as I noted, combining and transforming near eastern stories and used them as a model as he knew them in his cultural milieu to compose his work? If you recall, I referenced a paper earlier about the Eridu Genesis. This is what I found yesterday as I read it;

“What form such influence on P may have taken is obviously not easy to say for certain. We must imagine that we are dealing here essentially with a matter of standards set. P–or the circle of writers designated by that name–may have known and admired the precision of Mesopotamian records and they may have been inspired to imitation. The Mesopotamian materials will have served as models rather than being directly borrowed from.” Jacobsen, Thorkild. “The Eridu Genesis.” Journal of Biblical Literature 100.4 (1981): 528-529.

Jacobsen seems to agree with me, there is no direct borrowing going on with Eridu Genesis, it merely served as one of the many Mesopotamian models for the composition of Genesis 1-11 (at least in P).

@ManiacalVesalius

Your response does seem a bit vexing. Saying that you will accept that Sumerian logograms had similar meaning in both Sumerian and Akkadian is like saying:

you will accept that 6th Century Latin and 10th Century Latin had similar meanings.

While most everyone acknowledges that languages do change over time, most people would not be so contentious as to suggest that Latin, a clerical language intentionally retained by means of a certain conservative view of its importance, was merely “similar” betwen the 6th and 10th centuries. Instead, one might confess that Latin of these two time periods was mostly identical in meaning - - just as Sumerian and Akkadian vintages of cuneiform would have been mostly identical.

So Thorkild would have us think you can use stories about a flood, and about a “confusion of languages”, as “models” without borrowing?

In the article linked below, we read robust discussion about Shakespeare “liberally borrowing” from sources all around the known world from various time frames. To name just two notorious examples, we read:

"Arthur Brooke’s poem The Tragical History of Romeus and Juliet served as the source for Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet.

“… There are even plays based on the works of other playwrights. Hamlet owes a debt to Thomas Kyd’s The Spanish Tragedy …”

Brooke’s “Romeus and Juliet” was written in 1562 (compared to Shakespeare’s incomparable play produced no earlier than 1591). “The Spanish Tragedy” was even younger than “Romeus…”, being written no earlier than 1582 (Hamlet written no earlier than 1600).

What Jewish scribes were doing with ANE stories should be no real mystery. As we know, the Catholic Church enthusiastically embraced the “egg-laying rabbits of Pagan Europe” in its celebration of Easter, the name of which is quite clearly an English borrowing of a Pagan deity; shall we say that this is merely a template, not a borrowing?

"The most widely accepted theory of the origin of the term is that it is derived from the name of an Old English goddess mentioned by the 7th to 8th-century English monk Bede, who wrote that
Ēosturmōnaþ (Old English ‘Month of Ēostre’, translated in Bede’s time as “Paschal month”)
was an English month, corresponding to April, which he says
"was once called after a goddess of theirs named Ēostre,

Such “borrowings” are not just accidents. They are intentional, in their plan to co-opt a popular story from a pagan generation, to make it new and meaningful to a new generation.

And it happens all the time. Jesus almost certainly wasn’t born on December 25, but there are lots of reasons why Christian institutions gravitated towards this date:

“The celebration of Christmas as the birth day of Jesus is based on a date of a pagan feast rather than historical analysis. Saturnalia, the Roman feast for Saturn was associated with the winter solstice. Saturnalia was held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 23 December. . . . The holiday was celebrated with . . . a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms.”

“. . . The festival of the Nativity which later turned into Christmas was a 4th-century feast in the Western Church notably in Rome and North Africa, although it is uncertain exactly where and when it was first celebrated. The earliest source stating 25 December as the date of birth of Jesus is likely by Hippolytus of Rome, written very early in the 3rd century, based on the assumption that the conception of Jesus took place at the Spring equinox which he placed on March 25, and then added nine months – festivals on that date were then celebrated.”

If you know the story of the Slaughter of the Magi by Herodotus, you will instantly recognize that is the same general story being described in the Hebrew Book of Esther. In the latter, Haman schemes to have the Jewish people slaughtered all around the Persian Empire. But his plans backfire, and Haman and his followers are the ones persecuted. In the Herodotus story, there is no notice of Jewish victimhood, but the ethnically distinct Magi of the Medes are slaughtered.

The drama of the original story pales next to the drama that a Jewish scribe has loaded into Esther. And depending on when Esther was actually written, it might have been quite easy to have co-opted the story, since the Persians were no longer around to exercise a complaint against the new version.

The flood story is an obvious borrowing, but in a Yahwist context. The confusion of the human language is also an obvious borrowing, but also in a Yahwist context. To make a Jewish version of these pagan stories was an act of devotion - - not an abomination. It facilitated capturing the hearts and minds of new generations of Jewish audiences, and helped replace the old Pagan versions.

I don’t understand your comments about what I said regarding Sumerian and Akkadian. I accepted Jonathan’s premise. Why do you insist on holding on to points that we have already resolved in our discussions? It doesn’t help us progress through the points one by one to come to a more common understanding and it doesn’t help share information either.

So Thorkild would have us think you can use stories about a flood, and about a “confusion of languages”, as “models” without borrowing?

You misunderstood Thorkild’s comment. Before I go on, I need to make an important point. Thorkild is a serious scholar in the field, and when assessing his arguments, or the arguments of any other scholar for that matter, you should not immediately presume that they had made such a silly error. You should be more charitable and say “as I understand it, Thorkild is saying X, which wouldn’t be correct because of Y. It is possible this is not Thorkild’s argument, but if it is, he is mistaken”. One should always be charitable when addressing the arguments of someone who has spent decades of their lives studying the material and has attained a respectable academic position.

Anyways, as I originally noted, you misunderstood Thorkild’s argument. Thorkild is contrasting between an author utilizing precedent traditions and stories, versus flat-out copying/borrowing them. The author of these texts probably didn’t even have copies of these ancient near eastern tales, and would only be familiar with the stories from the common near eastern milieu. For another example of the Bible utilizing and modeling from a precedent tradition but not copying/borrowing from it, the Bible’s legal traditions, such as the Commandments, draws on precedent near eastern traditions that are exhibited in the 42 principles of Ma’at and Code of Hammurabi, but it is never copying/borrowing from them. The author probably never had a copy of these texts ever, but they had such a wide-ranging influence that they became common in the culture that the Bible was written in, and so the author would use these traditions to model his own text. This is the point I was making all along!

I’m not aware of the scholarship on Shakespeare’s story. It should be obvious that claiming Shakespeare borrowed, therefore the OT borrowed is an obvious non-sequitur. You should also be notified that the claims of why later traditions said Jesus was born on the 25th have zit to do with Saturnalia, which wasn’t on the 25th anyways (the solstice also wasn’t on the 25th). You didn’t name your source where you got that quote from probably because there’s no real historian in the world who draws the 25th tradition from paganism or Saturnalia. By the way, I don’t think Jesus was born on the 25th, I’m just pointing out nonsense in modern culture and popular history. Either way, the flood was modeled after the common near eastern flood tales, not borrowed from it, as I think scholars agree on. There is an important difference between these two types of things and they are not interchangeable.

By the way, I just wanted to ask what your religious beliefs were.

@ManiacalVesalius

The quickest answer to your question is: "because of the way you framed your sentence, I was not at all sure that you were agreeing or accepting Jonathan’s premise. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ADDENDUM: You will note the similarity of what I write above to @Jonathan’s own response to the very same text:

"It isn’t clear to me if you were agreeing with, or disagreeing with, or just partially agreeing with, my correction of your claim about cuneiform. Please read what I wrote. Akkadians used Sumerian logograms. That’s the point. It’s not that Sumerian logograms had “similar meaning in both Sumerian and Akkadian”, it’s that Akkadians (and other cultures), actually used Sumerian logograms."

Sometimes it’s not “me”.

@ManiacalVesalius

I find your logic and Thorkild’s logic vexatious. The term “borrowing” is clear enough that most any objective observor can see that “borrowing” of ANE legends and/or myths has occurred.

To say there was no borrowing would be to literally say that whoever wrote Genesis (let’s say it was Moses) had never heard of the Sumerian, Akkadian or Babylonian versions of this story before writing Genesis.

Is that your position, Korvexius? Do you think Genesis was written without any outside knowledge of these other similar stories… and that any similarities between the Genesis and the other stories is explained by either:

  1. pure coincidence; and/or

  2. that the Sumerian/Akkadian versions were based on the events described in the Bible’s Book of Genesis, but have been distorted from the historical facts of Genesis (intentionally or not).

I would be interested in knowing which of these two options above you hold to.

It isn’t clear to me if you were agreeing with, or disagreeing with, or just partially agreeing with, my correction of your claim about cuneiform. Please read what I wrote. Akkadians used Sumerian logograms. That’s the point. It’s not that Sumerian logograms had “similar meaning in both Sumerian and Akkadian”, it’s that Akkadians (and other cultures), actually used Sumerian logograms. The logograms had the same meaning in both cultures. I have no idea where you’re getting this idea of “Sumerian and Akkadian cuneiform”, as if these were two different cuneiform systems. The Akkadians adopted Sumerian cuneiform wholesale, and apart from a few stylistic differences in writing the logograms, they were writing exactly what the Sumerians before them had written. Anyone who knew Sumerian cuneiform could read any of the Sumerian texts, Akkadian texts, and Babylonian texts. They could also read the Ebla Tablets in Paleo-Syria, because they were also written in Sumerian cuneiform.

So a Hebrew writer in Babylon only needed to be taught one language in order to read and write these texts, and we know that a certain number of elite Hebrew were taught the language and literature of the Babylonians.

"The Hebrew Bible tells us in so many words that a hand-picked group of Judaean intelligentsia were inducted into the mysteries of cuneiform at the capital, and I see absolutely no reason not to take this statement at face value:', Irving L Finkel_. The Ark before Noah : Decoding the Story of the Flood_ (New York : Nan A. Talese/Doubleday, 2014).

With regard to the issue of the breath of life, you are equivocating wildly.

I am not taking it out of context. The entire phrase is “the breath of life”. It stands alone. Sometimes it is appended to other things, “the breath of life of heaven”, or “the breath of life of the earth”, but it’s the same phrase. You’re being confused by slightly different English renderings of the same phrase.

Firstly, as I have already shown you, Job doesn’t use the phrase at all; Job even uses completely different Hebrew words. The Hebrew phrase for “breath of life” never occurs in Job. Secondly, if this concept and phrase was so widespread and widely used, as you claim, why is it that we have 500 years of Hebrew literature (the vast majority of the Old Testament), which never uses it? Leaving Genesis 1-11 aside, why is this phrase only found elsewhere in exilic Hebrew texts? Providing Lamentations as an example just strengthens my point, since it’s an exilic text. Citing Revelation (!), is completely irrelevant given that Revelation was written over 600 years after the exile. All you’re doing is proving that the phrase was not used in pre-exilic Hebrew texts.

I am going to write more on this later (I have been writing a reply which is already several pages long), but right now I need to tell you that you are completely misguided in appealing to this text. It is not about the confusion of languages at all, and the nineteenth century translation you are using is not only biased by the author’s preconceptions but is woefully misleading as a result.

As I will also demonstrate to you, this seal has absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve.

No he wasn’t. I keep telling you this.

That quotation from Thorkild is what I have been telling you repeatedly. If you have now decided to agree with me, that’s great news. By the way, you need to read Thorkild with care. He believes that P had access to written Mesopotamian records, and used some of their concept and form, rather than your idea that P just happened to write things which were similar to Mesopotamian records because P knew the same oral traditions and ideas as the Mesopotamians. As I have told you repeatedly, this is not a matter of copy/pasting, but using the same content and form, primarily for polemic purposes. This kind of literary connection between Genesis 1-11 and the Mesopotamian texts, is well recognized across the scholarship of this field.

“It is commonly accepted that parts of Genesis 1–11 show literary dependence, either directly or indirectly, on Mesopotamian literary tradition.187 The best test case would be the flood story in Genesis 6–9.”, Mark S Smith, God in Translation: Deities in Cross-Cultural Discourse in the Biblical World (Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 2010), 182.

This not a case of simple wholesale “borrowing”. It is a case of Genesis 1-11 being modeled on the Mesopotamian literature.

“The similarities between the Genesis account and the ‘Atra-Hasis Epic’ do not support the idea that Genesis is a direct borrowing from the Mesopotamian but do indicate that Mesopotamian materials could have served as models for Genesis 1-11, as Jacobsen holds. P.D. Miller also admits that 'there were Mesopotamian models that anticipate the structure of Genesis 1-11 as a whole.”, David Toshio Tsumura, “Genesis and Ancient Near Eastern Stories of Creation and Flood,” in ‘I Studied Inscriptions from Before the Flood: Ancient Near Eastern, Literary Approaches to Genesis 1-11, ed. Richard S. Hess and David Toshio Tsumura, vol. 4, , Sources for Biblical and Theological Study (Eisenbrauns, 1994), 47.

@Jonathan_Burke

Do you need to edit your post above to reference your “usual correspondent” on this thread?

Right now it looks like I wrote the commentary you are discussing …