Here is a picture of what a sauropod dinosuar’s tail is believed to have looked like:
The two look nothing like each other whatsoever, Adam. A cedar tree is broad and spread out with branches, twice as wide as it is high. A sauropod tail may be wider than an elephant’s but it is still a dozen times as long as it is wide or more. You are simply trying to put a science fiction/Dinotopia/The Flintstones spin on the imagery where one doesn’t exist. If @rsewell’s tactic “relies on wives tails (sic) rather than genuine reading and comprehension of the text and using science to adequitely (sic) fit the description given”, yours does too even more so, because while @rsewell’s “spin” is grounded in reality and evidence-based science, yours is grounded on nothing but science fiction.
Ironic, considering you are completely ignoring most of the text, which depicts behemoth as hidden in marsh reeds and shallow aquatic plants.
Thank you for your helpful mention of Ben Stanhope. His discussion of the multi-headed Leviathan as depicted in Psalm 74 is especially devastating to the AiG presentation as an aquatic reptile.
First Chapter of Shanhope’s book, “(Mis)interpreting Genesis: How the Creation Museum Misunderstands the Ancient Near Eastern Context of the Bible.”: What was Leviathan?
You need to go back and rethink how you are reading this…no said it’s a Cedar tree with branches sticking out over a wide area.
Go to your interlinear and read the various ways in which Bible translations have printed that text.
It is very clear that the aim of the writer is to portray a very large strong tail.
I’m sorry but hippo is wrong period. You cannot interpret it that way…hippos legs don’t even match up…a hippo has tiny little short stumpy legs really…I’d argue those don’t work to fulfill the imagery either.
Btw how far back in the evolutionary timeline do hippos date…as far as horses, mules and donkeys?(hmm how come Bible writers use those animal names?) I think if it were a hippo, like a horse the writer would say so…otherwise the hippo are less than 3000 years old.
Btw your Cedar tree image is an intentional misrepresentation of large cedar trees…here are some more to set the record straight.
The last image destroys your attempt at misleading us entirely! Be honest in your science please. My professiomal qualifications put it simple terms, were woodwork and metalwork teaching…now called design and technology. Please don’t attempt to con someone who studied the wood industry at university. I absolutely know why the Bible writer used cedar in his illustration and the last image illustrates that reasoning very well.
Nice try Adam. They still don’t look anything remotely like a sauropod tail.
Look, the most that you can say about Behemoth’s tail from Job 40 is that it was big. I can agree that that doesn’t describe an elephant or a hippopotamus very well, but as has already been pointed out to you, there are other aspects of the description of Behemoth that are at least as out of kilter with a sauropod dinosaur. Such as, for example, the deafening silence about its neck, or the fact that it hides in the reeds and ferns. Besides, there are other living creatures today that most certainly do have big fat tails. Such as the crocodile for example.
The fact of the matter is that the description of Behemoth is simply too vague and general to provide any evidence whatsoever that humans and dinosaurs coexisted, and certainly not when you consider that the overwhelming evidence that we see in God’s creation around us tells us in no uncertain terms that they didn’t. The most reasonable and logical conclusion that anyone can draw from the description in Job chapter 40 is that “behemoth” is nothing more nor less than a generic term for large land animals in general. The list of traits is a mishmash that does not fully fit any one animal, either extant or extinct, and to claim otherwise is not exegesis; it is eisegesis.
One of Egypt’s principle gods, Taweret, was a chimera with the body of a hippo. Interesting to this discussion is that she came equipped with a crocodile tail, which may have influenced the imagery associated with hippo’s.
Hippo figurines were very common in ancient Egypt, and these were generally decorated with the associated reeds and lotus plants as referenced in Job, which I remind you, you still have not acknowledged.
Those stumpy legs can speed up 20 - 30 km per hour of charging belly. Hundreds of people are killed every year by hippo’s, making it Africa’s most dangerous large animal, despite being vegetarian. Again - Job 40:16
What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
Most hippo species are extinct, but a few million years for the large modern one. Most equine species are also extinct. You can figure out mules on your own. Here is a video for hippo evolution:
Yes, but it’s portraying that strength in action, not in still life. As @rsewell has been trying to get us to see, Job 40 doesn’t say the tail looks like a cedar. Job sees the tail in action, and that action brings to mind a cedar. That action isn’t to sway or bend – it’s not like a wet noodle or sauropod tail. Instead, behemoth stiffens his tail like a cedar. In the Bible, cedars are prized for their thick, tough, fast-growing trunks that provide the perfect wood to make beams and pillars to erect big buildings.
So it’s not merely a large strong tail, but a tail that becomes large and strong. As @Christy already pointed out, “tail” is most likely a euphemism. Just as a hiker might call an outhouse a bathroom even though it doesn’t contain a bath, the Bible tends to use euphemisms for things sexual and scatological. Verse 16 and 17 seem to be focused on behemoth’s reproductive power, from its loins to its “tail” to its “thighs” (which the KJV, following other ancient translations, calls “stones”).
Job got a humbling sight, but it wasn’t a dino wiggling its tail.
I fully agree with you that the theology is the real issue. Were it not for the theology, no one would think the universe was 6000 years old.
The problem I see with your position, is that theology is also a human construct, subject to human error and misinterpretation. Jesus pointed that out many times in his ministry in his conversations with the Pharisees and scribes, the most learned and serious theologians of his day. And today, we see widely different interpretations of the same scriptures. We have to have a measure of humility in our own understanding as we look at what God is trying to teach us through scripture, and that involves at times changing our minds, or accepting uncertainty.
Best wishes in your journey as we start this new year.
The alleged dinosaurs of Job are ancient depctions of mythical chaos monsters as biblical scholarship has known about for decades. They aren’t literal depictions of literal creatures that lived on earth. The narrative points are theological, not zoological.
We know about dinosaurs from science, not from Job.
We know what the fossils looked like in life by doing the science. Unearthing and describing fossils, analyzing DNA, etc. give us information about what the animals looked like and how they behaved, what they ate, etc. And when new evidence comes in, the science is updated. Consider how T-rex is displayed now–like a road runner, no longer like godzilla. This is because T-rex trackways don’t show any tail dragging. Even you would have some common sense about reconstruction–you wouldn’t put a flipper in an eye socket.
And the reconstruction techniques we use to show what our ancient ancestors looked like are similar to the forensic reconstructions the police use today.
I agree with all of this Phil and that is exactly my point.
I see that in the majority of different Christian denominations, the reason why we note they have differences with each other is because of the way in which they interpret Biblical writings.
Having said that, i can pick the major differences in most of them and very easily explain using biblical passages why they are mostly wrong.
For example, lets just look at a simple one, the Seventh Day Sabbath.
Most religious denominations claim that the Seventh Day Sabbath is no longer necessary as the day of worship because of one or all of the following factors (not an exhaustive list, just a couple of main ones):
It is a Jewish tradition given by God only to the Jews
Jesus gave us a new Covenant of love
The gospel was given to the Gentiles who apparently came together on the Lords Day and broke bread
ok so here’s the significant theological problems with the above:
Jewish tradition:
The Sabbath was given to Adam and Eve in Genesis Chapter 1…it was then reinforced thousands of years later (long after the flood in Exodus 20) where it says “Remember” the Sabbath Day.
Abraham predated the Israelites coming out of Egypt by many many hundreds of years and Genesis 15 says Abraham received the righteousness of God and was justified by faith…so salvation by works was not part of the original apparent legalism of the old law given by Moses…that is simply not theologically accurate.
New Covenant:
the prophet Jeremiah 31 spoke of the New Covenant hundreds of years BEFORE Christ! Jesus was simply quoting an existing statement of Jeremiah (even your bible referencing will link the NT New Covenant with Jer 31:31-34)
The new covenant is exactly the same as the old one…the only difference is that Gods eternal law (10 commandments) would now be written on peoples hearts and in their minds and God would take upon himself the responsibility of convicting people of his law…whereas before the people had said to Moses “all these things we will do” Exodus 19
Love God and Love thy neighbour - has anyone ever bothered to catalogue the 10 commandments? Do you realise that when we catalogue the 10 commandments exactly as they were given by Moses they fall into 2 categories (love God 1-3 and love thy neighbour 5-10) and that these are joined/glued together by the Sabbath command?
Breaking bread on the Lords Day:
Can anyone find any reference anywhere in the bible where it shows Jesus demonstrated/taught any followers to worship on a new Sabbath day? Teachers usually teach us what they want us to do…what teacher spends time teaching their students then says at the end of it all…forget all of what i have taught you…its irrelevant. Jesus did not once during His ministry teach anyone to worship or even plan to worship on any other day other than the Seventh Day Sabbath as was initiated at creation.
There are other examples of the early church having meetings where it is clearly defined as being on the Sabbath day…so what is going on here? Are some apostles teaching one group the Lords day is Sunday and other groups its the Seventh Day Sabbath? That is incredibly inconsistent and not even supported by any biblical tradition illustrating the Sabbath day of worship!
I could go on with many other issues with denominations and why they do not all believe the same things. Some examples are the state of the dead, purgatory, heavenly sanctuary, obviously Teism/YECism…etc. When we move to Revelation 14:12 we find that the people of God are those who:
“…who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.”
If Sunday worshipping churches really are God’s people, why do they not keep all of His commandments? Did not the gospel go to the gentles because the Jews failed to keep their promise in Exodus 19 “all these things we will do”?
The problem is, you are attempting to say that all YEC’s have the wrong interpretation of scripture. Im sorry but the one commandment in the entire bible that is absolutely critical to its understanding is one that by far the majority of Christian churches ignored…the 4th. Therein lies the root of all of this trouble between YEC and TEism. Even Sunday worshiping YEC’s have an enormous problem theologically refuting TEism because of exactly the point that they all ignore and event discredit the need to maintain adherence to the keeping of the 4th commandment!
So when you say to me, oh but Adam its just the way you interpret scripture regarding the age of the earth…um, let me put this to you, if your mother says “stealing, murder etc are wrong and don’t do those things”, how can you possibly interpret what you mother is saying by attributing it as an allegory? It is very obviously to be taken exactly as your mother stated… DO NOT STEAL OR MURDER!
In the same way God said (and notice exactly what the 4th commandment states)
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
There is no way one can interpret Eodus 20:8-11 as an allegory any more than one can interpret any of the other 9 commandments in that manner (and to say otherwise is just plain silly given the illustration of one’s mother telling one not to steal or murder!)
I think Job and his friends were anything but pagan. It is very clear to me that his religious practices were pre-Jewish in nature as they clearly articulate a very good understanding of righteousness and the consequences for sin.
1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.
Note that it was Job’s regular custom to make arrangements to have his children purified. This is not something that suggests he was being converted from paganism. His friends who came to advise him after he was struck down with all of the trials and tribulations thrust upon him by the devil, clearly understood the principles of the God in heaven as well…i doubt they were pagan.
people also claim the bible teaches the earth is flat because of the prophecy concerning the four winds in Revelation 7
.
Isaiah 40:7 says people are grass
The Bible calls us sheep
The Bible says the earth is round in Isaiah 40:22 (circle of the earth)
He says the earth has “ends” in Isaiah 40:28…does this mean the earth is a rope?
what is your point? Are you having trouble understanding metaphorical verses literal reading in scripture and when to apply each?
The point is that in multiple places, the biblical writers taught that the earth doesn’t move. Also, they believed the earth was flat, and saw the universe as having 3 tiers, with heaven above the earth and an underworld/hell below the earth. Nothing metaphorical here.
