“Flat” wouldn’t be unforeseen.
What do you mean? Which scientists today are predicting that the earth will one day be discovered to actually be flat?
The Earth doesn’t appear to be spherical? Really?
Would it be deceitful to create rocks that look just like dead animals, otherwise known as fossils?
First, this would require God to purposefully manipulate the ratios of isotopes within the rocks in such a way that when we use multiple and independent parent/daughter systems they all produce the same age. For example, God would have to carefully change the K/Ar, U/Pb, and Rb/Sr ratios in rocks within the same geologic strata so that when we use their observed decay rates those ratios all produce the same age. Does that make sense?
Second, after God manipulated the isotope ratios in those rocks he would have to create the fossils that are found underneath them. Obviously, when animals like a T. rex die they don’t bury themselves hundreds of feet into the ground. Therefore, when we find something like a volcanic ash layer above a fossil we correctly conclude that the ash layer had to come about after the T. rex died. Those volcanic ash layers are the ones you are claiming were created by God as part of the creation event. This requires God to also create the T. rex fossils that lie under those volcanic ash layers.
Does this sound like something God would do?
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I should have just said, “I’ll mark your answer down as a ‘yes.’”
That would be wrong. The fact is that we can be sure that there will be no new information in the future which will prove our universe and earth are very young. We already have abundant evidence that they are very old. No new information or perspectives will change this.
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The question Mike is really asking is, “At some point in the future will science come up with a new perspective that proves God created.” Am I right? Or are you asking about when?
If I am correct, I would consider that a new divine relevation and I don’t believe that will happen (and there is probably Scripture to back that up). Why do we need a new relevation when we already have all we need in the Bible?
I have always felt that God would never allow us to come up with a strong human proof that He exists for the simple reason that he knows we would worship the proof and not him. And people would place their faith in the proof and not Christ. It is human nature.
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That’s what a “yes” answer means.
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That doesn’t make sense in light of your claim that a flat earth wouldn’t be unforseen. But at least we’ve cleared that up. So where does that leave your original argument?
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I thought you told me that you understood that I wasn’t asking rhetorical questions - that is, I wasn’t making an argument. I was seeking answers. You gave me some. I’m still open to answers from others. No offense, but I didn’t consider your answers conclusive. (You’ll have to admit they were more declaratory than explanatory.)
Why did you not consider them conclusive? They were not more declatory than explanatory. I explained in specific detail how they addressed your question directly.
Maybe I’m just slow.
If you describe how my answers weren’t conclusive, or what they failed to explain, I can try again.
As I recall, you gave me no reason to believe that science and technology won’t bring new perspectives that we cannot currently imagine. As I understand it, the science community went from geocentricity to heliocentrity, but did not stay there. As I understand it, scientists did not know about the sub-atomic domain when they discovered the atom. As I understand it, the discovery of DNA led to all sorts of unexpected finds in the field of genetics including the famed human genome project. I am not even a novice in such things, but I do know that the pace of technolgy is increasing, and when you look at how far science has come in the less than 500 years it’s been practiced, and you add in an increasing pace of change, it strikes me a counter-intuitive to say that in the millennia to come we won’t be given new perspectives which causes our current perspectives to be seen in a different light. Maybe I could be convinced…but not by a mere declaration.
But so what? I don’t think there is any reason to believe that science and technology won’t bring new perspectives that we can’t currently imagine. How is that related to your original question?
You mean scientists no longer believe the earth orbits the sun?
But who is saying this? Not me. More importantly, how is this actually related to your original question? If it isn’t, then please address what I wrote regarding your original question. If it is, then please describe how it is related to your original question.
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As a comparison, do you expect new perspectives to demonstrate that matter is not made of atoms, the Sun really does orbit the Earth, or that DNA is not the molecule involved in heritable traits? I think these things are absolutely settled. The age of the Earth and the Universe is as settled as heliocentrism, atoms, and DNA.
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That’s exactly the point I made. If he’s not disputing those issues then what’s the actual point of the question?
You may be right, but the first two don’t seem like the same category to me as the last three. Moreover, I just don’t feel comfortable when an expert in a field with which I am not familiar tells me that if I don’t trust what he’s saying, then I’m saying God is deceitful. Sounds like a false dichotomy, and feels like coercion.
I’m not completely rejecting what you’re saying. I’m just saying it’s not the kind of thing I can swallow without chewing.
God would be considered being deceitful if he created but left clear evidence in a variety of fields that the creation didn’t happen in the way he actually acted. The idea that he created and left false evidence is called The Omphalos Hypothesis. The link is to the Wikipedia article if you haven’t heard of this before.
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I have heard of this hypothesis but have no interest in it.
As for the original point, to re-state it, I just don’t feel comfortable being pressed to say either the earth is 4B years old or God is deceitful.
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