It is hard to know what you are talking about without specific examples of “make God persons to be different from each other.” The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different persons, but only one God – one being so that when you see/know one, you see/know them all. This suggests to me that the differences between persons is not of such great significance and it is the ways in which they are the same which is important. goodness? love?
Well i meant seperration. Sorry about that. Like some comments make them sepperate like Jesus having no connection with the father for example
God bless
For me personally this is part of what I mean. To me often the simplest answer , especially with systematic theology, is the one that shows up clearly. It does not take a lot of outside pressure to bend it. The text is just clear. Now not everything is as simply and straightforward put such as myths and metaphors and revelations and parables. But many other parts are.
So for me the first thing to look at is what does the spirit guiding a man to say about Jesus choose to say.
John 1:1-5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
- These verses right here is about the word. Later on we know the word becomes embodied in flesh but at the moment that’s not what is being talked about. Before the word became flesh and was called Jesus the word was simply the word. It’s ambiguous. We don’t know exactly what it means. We can force concepts into it but letting scripture simply state itself we see that this is about the word and this is about the word before the word became jesus. The word was with God and through the word all things was created. This is obviously hyperlinking all the way back to genesis when it said “ God said let there be…” that was Gods word. That’s the word that created everything. That’s the word that was God and was with God. Then as we continue to read a new revelation is revealed to us.
John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
*We now find out that this word became flesh. The word became Jesus. The word was God and God’s word became flesh. God became flesh. That’s why it mentions the prophecies of Immanuel (God with us)
So what does it mean for the word of god to become flesh? Scripture tells us.
Philippians 2:5-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name.
- Here it says Jesus did not consider himself equal to God. He considered himself a man, not god. He existed in the form of God but clearly by taking on the form of a lowly bond servant he was no longer in the form of God. Jesus became a man. He did not became a half man half god. He fully became a man in every way. The word of God was a form of God. That form became flesh and when it became flesh it became the form of human. Later on that human conquers death and becomes God once more in some fashion that again is not clear as I will show later on.
Hebrews 2:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
- For a little while he was made a little lower than humans. He became human, fully human, just like any of us, so that he could defeat death and sin.
Hebrews 4:14-16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
- Jesus was tempted because he was a man. God can not be tempted. -
James 1:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
- Jesus died. God can’t die.
Mark 13:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
- God knows everything but Jesus did not.
Luke 22:42 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”
- Jesus had a will of his own but choose to do Gods will.
Matthew 28:18 New American Standard Bible
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
*God does not need authority but Jesus did need to be given it.
Was there anything Jesus himself may have said that was clear .
Mark 10:18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
*Jesus said don’t call him good only God is good.
John 14:28-30 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
*Jesus says god is greater.
What about in the end. Do we see the son ruling forever?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
- After Jesus defeats gods enemies he hands the kingdom over to God the father and he becomes subjected to him.
So to me it seems like Jesus was distinctly different t from God. We can’t explain it perfectly. But if someone is arguing Jesus consider himself God while on earth and was not separate that’s a larger road for them to walk and prove.
I agree except that He had no occult knowledge of science and history and could therefore make no such effort. He was fully enculturatedly human and knew quantitatively what His culture knew. Which was of extremely low quality. Qualitatively He knew what His divine nature availed Him. Which was of the Highest.
The Jews described God the Killer from Genesis to Revelation. No? What they thought about Him is in the same library.
They also believed in God the merciful - the God of justice - a God for all nations too. While a great preponderance of the older testament can be used to support your observation, there are just too many glaring foreshadowings of the God revealed later by Christ to let your thesis of “Killer God” rest easily. Such a thesis begins to have problems in Genesis already, much less in all the other prophetic writings. And then Jesus comes and blows the whole thing wide open for us. “Killer god” turns out to not be the final word on who God is.
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Ahh thats what he meant. Well you sum it up great mervin.I fully agree
They also believed in God the merciful - the God of justice - a God for all nations too. While a great preponderance of the older testament can be used to support your observation, there are just too many glaring foreshadowings of the God revealed later by Christ to let your thesis of “Killer God” rest easily. Such a thesis begins to have problems in Genesis already, much less in all the other prophetic writings. And then Jesus comes and blows the whole thing wide open for us. “Killer god” turns out to not be the final word on who God is.
Amen to that. Referring to God as “God the killer” and the implications of that statement border on blasphemy and as you have said are untrue.
You mean the God portrayed from one end of the Bible to the other, as the greatest mass murderer of all time, isn’t? I agree completely. The Bible blasphemes Him.
Woah there . The bible blashpemes God? well thats new. There are good answers to God beign a mass murdered but the word of God blashpemes God?
I utterly refute God the Killer, despite the overwhelming proclamation of Him in the Bible. Creating God the Merciful, Just, Killer is just as heretical, blasphemous to God as revealed in Jesus. As Jesus says. Twice. [As we’re keen to proclaim the horribly threatening hard sayings of Jesus, why aren’t we as keen to proclaim His wonderful, inclusive, universalist one? Why do we limit the hard sayings to their worst interpretation?]
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Like for instance when God ordered the cannanites to be destroyed i mean there was no alternative in my opinion. They were corrupting the Isralites and they would possibly prevent the birth of the saviour. So God kinda step on history.Was it moral? Well i dont think the cannanites were gonna change their sinful behaviour
I understand Nick. I’ve argued that and a lot worse. I can’t now. [I don’t find it necessary to at all.]
I would say that the issue is that there is more than one kind of truth or meaning. If we look at the night sky we could see the glory of God, as beautiful sight, or examples of nuclear fission. All of these are accurate descriptions, that is they are true. Sadly too often modern people think that there is only one truth and that is “scientific” truth.
We have the events found in Genesis which convey spiritual truth and this is what Jesus and the Bible is about. They also conveyed what were thought to be historical facts and scientific facts, which were based on the facts as best the people knew them. In other words I would say that the facts are in the Bible because people thought them to be true, not because they were true because they were in the Bible.
The main issue is are these facts spiritually true, because this is all that the Bible claims to do, show forth God plan of salvation. The Hebrews took the story of Noah which was thought to be true and was used to convey pagan spiritual ideas, and adapted it to fit the history of Israel and convey Jewish spiritual ideas. The scientific facts are wrong, and the history is unclear, but the spiritual meaning is solid or true. .
As for the flood account i dont think its entirely myth. Some flood accounts actually did happen well not on global scale though .
I don’t understand what you’re asking.
Though not as ancient as Moses, have you also considered the cultural satire of Jonah?
I mean it’s a story about a prophet who would have been a few hundred years old by the time the story was wrote. It’s a northern kingdom prophet who thought he could flee God by running from God. He fled so that he would not have to help the pagan heathens of Nineveh repent to find gods mercy. He ended up on a ship of pagan heathens and was willing to die for them.
He gets cast overboard a ship that was thinking it should break itself up when to please God Jonah was tossed over by the pagans who then make scarified ( I assume of atonement involving fire ) and Jonah was swallowed by a male fish and three days later the fish threw up Jonah and was now a female
Fish. The city is known to be small and had no king but was portrayed as a giant city with 120,000 citizens and had a king.
He preaches the message to the Assyrians and they accept it and repent and goes as far as to make their animals wear sack cloths.
Jonah still believes God is going to destroy them and so he goes up a to watch. But God does not. Jonah tried to sit in the shade and so god makes a plant grow to keep him in the shadow. Then the next day the plant dies and God directly calls out Jonah for being sad and having compassion for the dead plant but no compassion for the pagans who were so dumb they can’t tell their right from their left hands.
Job suffered everything but death at Satan’s hand. I’d call that controlling behaviour on the part of Satan. As it was in taking Jesus to the top of the temple and a mountain (which one eh?). Literally… or symbolically.