Thank for the article. My first reaction is to note that it completely ignores the most important and successful Christian social movement in our lifetime, the Civil Rights Movement led by Dr. King and the Black Church. If it has taken this experience seriously, I think that the article would be very different.
Why does not the White Church take the Black Church seriously? Is it racism, or just cultural myopia? I use the concept of ethnic centrism to the word racism, and it does some to me that the White Church, both liberal and conservative is guilty of this.
However it should be noted that Blacks were the backbone of the Democratic Party and the Clinton campaign, This fact seems to bring about a reaction in the Republican Party. We know about Nixon’s Southern Strategy. We know that the South which was once solidly Democratic and segregationist is now solidly Republican and “conservative.”
The evangelical church had the opportunity to change the world during the last 8 years and it blew it. Jesus said, “Satan is a liar and the Father of Lies.” The Republican Party has told lie after lie about President Obama, starting with Donald Trump and his claim that the POTUS was not born in the US. He has now very belatedly said that he was born in the US, but as failed in his CHRISTIAN responsibility to say he was sorry and ask for forgiveness.
I think we are getting off-topic again here. Off-topic does not mean wrong or unimportant but simply that we are straying from the intended purpose of this forum. Let’s talk more about politics, culture, and the Church—and how it connects to origins debates, and less about whether we like Trump. @Swamidass is doing a good job of modeling that sort of conversation.
We need a hope that cannot die, a courage that survives hardship, a love that conquers fear. We need our trust in the Lord, Jesus Christ.
I think that all Christians, no matter what their views on origins will find common ground with that.
I spent most of my life looking in at the family of Christians, thinking how strange it was, and how cohesive they were in their shared beliefs in a savior I could not accept. Now that I have entered that family, I rejoice in the sharing of joy and wonder for the resurrection of Christ, and the hope of salvation, the love of God for me and for all my brothers and sisters.
Perhaps those born into the faith do not see the beauty of our shared fellowship in Christ as the joyous miracle that I, a recent convert, can see. Compared to this beauty, disagreements as to Biblical interpretations or the role of science fade to minor, though worthwhile occasions for discussion within a much broader context of shared faith. YECs, IDer, ECs and OECs all want the Church to thrive, the people to see the Truth, and our shared faith in Christ to be the path we all follow.
He doesn’t just seem like a racist; he is a racist. Blacks weren’t allowed to rent his properties. And all his other talk about Mexicans, Muslims, etc. is very racist. A long time ago I used to spend summers in the South with relatives. Almost all the white evangelicals I met there were racist. You would think that evangelicals would want to distance themselves from this sort of thing.
An excellent starting point for work on identifying common ground for Christians is the theology of creation. This subject has been discussed for many centuries, and a good starting point is Basil (Hexaemeron) where he discusses Genesis from the theological view, while showing the shortcomings of current pagan natural philosophy on matter and associated notions. This extract from Homily II shows us how we can begin to see science within a sound theological context.
“God created the heavens and the earth, but not only half—He created all the heavens and all the earth, creating the essence with the form. For He is not an inventor of figures, but the Creator even of the essence of beings. Further let them tell us how the efficient power of God could deal with the passive nature of matter, the latter furnishing the matter without form, the former possessing the science of the form without matter, both being in need of each other; the Creator in order to display His art, matter in order to cease to be without form and to receive a form. But let us stop here and return to our subject.
The earth was invisible and unfinished. In saying In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the sacred writer passed over many things in silence, water, air, fire and the results from them, which, all forming in reality the true complement of the world, were, without doubt, made at the same time as the universe. By this silence, history wishes to train the activity or our intelligence, giving it a weak point for starting, to impel it to the discovery of the truth. Thus, we are not told of the creation of water; but, as we are told that the earth was invisible, ask yourself what could have covered it, and prevented it from being seen?”
I could not agree more, but then I have to ask, Why do Christians support a leader who spreads fear and cultivates anger. Where is the Church when Republican politics is based on lies, such as the birther lie?
The issue is not Trump. The issue is the divided state of our nation and the Church, which goes against everything that Jesus taught. Trump is just the con man who used this situation for his own benefit.
I have come to the conclusion that the connection with the origins debate is this this. With the Fundaments the conservative church decided that tit had established its theology and determined the Truth. YEC are not interested in determining the facts about Creation. They know the Truth and are interested in proving that they are right. Then same with ID.
To some extent the same is true with Darwinists. They are not interested in finding the truth, but only in proving that Darwin was right. The liberal church can accept Darwinism with modification, because it is pragmatic, and there is much room for pragmatism in Christianity.
The divide is between Christian Pragmatism, which H. Clinton does represent and Christian Dogmatism which S. Trump was able to exploit. Clinton at least expressed an interest in working together. The tactic of Trump was to divide and conquer. Trump won with the support of conservative Christianity, because he said he was against abortion, and those pragmatic Christians who saw him as the best way to become rich like him.
So glad to see someone refer to the Fathers. They are overlooked too often in conversation among Christians and they have much to say that is of value.
Good thoughts and a great way to be move forward. However, living in the heart of Trump county, very few were actually voting to endorse him. Most were voting against establishment politics and the status quo. However, here we are.
Hopefully, there will be some movement to common ground in politics, and we seek common ground in the science and religion debate.
I would say that Trump is not so much cultivating fear and anger as he is harvesting it. The fear and anger already existed with or without him, and simply made his viability as a candidate possible (and more than possible as it turns out). These people (at least most of them I’m sure) did not decide to elect an evil bigoted president. They were being governed by their own sets of principles (including some good and positive ones no less!) which led them to different conclusions about who is the most egregious threat against those principles. It is tempting to take note of the polls (as Ted referred to earlier) that apparently indicate that (many of? majority of?) white Trump voters are not college-educated, and I’m sure liberals everywhere enjoy this theme (captured in Niel deGrasse Tyson’s clever post-election retort on Colbert’s late show) that over the next four years our big job needs to be to “make America smart again”. But I propose that such smug jabs that taste so sweet to the educated elite are part of the very fuel that has so long fanned these culture wars in the first place.
Of course America (including all of us who live here) needs to be smart again — but that has been a long time need and would have (will be) needed anyway no matter who is president. I argue that we have yet to show any true intelligence at all; so it would be wonderful if America could become “smart” for the very first time, if such a thing is even possible for a nation. I’m not holding my breath for that.
But looking for common ground and being willing to put down stakes there provided it is good common ground is a worthy project. But if the ground itself is poor, we have trouble. We (nearly everyone in the U.S.) seem to have a common ground of wanting lives of financial security where we can be free, have all the high-tech, guaranteed, yet low-cost health care we want, acquire all the things we want and for everything to keep growing in all these regards (per our worn-out economic mantra that everything must either grow or die —not a whiff of interest for anything that is “merely” sustainable). I suggest the vast majority of us have planted flags on that “forever-growth” hill, and are willing to die there (or send others to die on our behalf, rather), forgetting that it is a hill with a cliff at one end. Never-mind that we are taking tumbles down that slope! We want our leaders to usher us back there so we can run off it again! So I would suggest that our common ground here is the common ground of idiocy. Until we altogether are delivered from these catastrophic sands, there will be no president or congress that will fulfill all our dreams of swooping in to “make everything better” for us.
Science and technology have been complicit and used by our much-maligned politics to plant promises and grand delusions in our minds of us delivering ourselves (by our own intelligence and/or hard work of course — we see how that’s been working out). So Joshua’s challenge for us to remove all these other things as idols is spot on. It could also be that we find some of these idols acting as a kind of “common ground” from which we need to vacate, rather than congregate.
Can anybody tell that my devotions have reached into the book of Amos lately? It may be depressing, but it can also be seen as a call to hard work under God which we can do every day – voting with our very lives and actions in ways that no electoral college has power to influence, repudiate, or deny. Vote early, vote late, vote often. Nobody can stop you. But make sure you are voting well.
Politics in this "Christian nation"of ours can be confusing. NAFTA proved to be a boon for the majority of people on both sides of our border with Mexico, and it was apparently responsible for the reverse in the flow of Mexican nationals into this country. But instead of working to remedy the hardship caused by the loss of some American jobs and rejoicing in the fact that there is now far less incentive for illegal migration, Trump could appeal to our grosser nature and we chant “BUILD THAT WALL”. The same applies to our trade with Asian nations. Our country’s appetite for the product of these neighbor’s ‘cheap labor’ has lifted their way of life, and in doing so, has almost certainly reduced the chances of World War III with China, say. While some U.S. jobs might have been lost, if we joined in TTP, this might well have been a cheaper way to U.S. security than building a couple more nuclear subs. But could Clinton say this during the campaign? Ha! She would have lost more resoundingly than she did.
It was a monumental faux pas for Clinton to mention a dream of the future that included Globalization. Is that not what Jesus envisioned when he included a Samaritan as neighbor to a Jew? I see no chance that our Christian Church will succeed in convincing us that ALL humans are our neighbors. Perhaps Mammon, in the form of Global Trade, will.
Al Leo
Thank you for your response. If I am a liberal , then I for one will not enjoy that jab. We certainly know that one does not have to be educated to make good and moral decisions. You are right in saying that most of the people who voted for Trump thought they were making a sound and moral decision. You are also right in saying that the fear and anger have been brewing for some time.
I do not put all of the blame on evangelical Christians, but this is what we are talking about Christians who do not act out of anger and fear, they act out of faith. I put the primary responsibility on the leadership because they are supposed to lead the sheep, educated or not. It appears to me that they are leading them the wrong way. Our decisions are supposed to be based on Jesus Christ and His Love, not on conservative ideology that betrayed them to a con man.
The Republicans demonized and lied on Hillary Clinton every chance they could and often when it made no sense. They did everything they could to destroy her politically, so when they needed to vote for her they could not so they lost and so did the country.
When the people who voted for Trump realize that they have been suckered again. what are they going to do then. Blame Hillary again or the Church or the government?
I can speak only for myself. I observed that Darwinian Natural Selection does not exist, just as Einstein observed that gravity as attraction at a distance does not exist. Thus there had to be a better answer which was not really evident until the emergence of the ecology of Lovelock and Margulis.
Brad,
I think you should shut this discussion down as this is a site that discusses science and religion. It is disconcerting that people should be discussing politics after you told people to keep on subject. I am disappointed. If people cannot abide by the rules and stay on subject then their posts need to be deleted. God is Sovereign and we get the president we deserve at this point in history. The sun will still shine tomorrow and God will still be in control.
People in the U.S. are very passionate about politics right now. Many are very angry. I get it (I’m one of them). But I do think (as I’ve said before) that it’s time to move to different subjects. I’m closing the thread.
