That actually is not a precise thing I have ever heard. “felt Christ’s presence” —yes at times (rare) I have…but looking for a “way to be 100% certain” seems like something of an alternative universe. The idea is that Jesus sends His Spirit to be with believers. You do not have to be able to quantify that (such as “I feel LOTS of Him in my right arm…but not so much in my left foot.”) How precise do you want this knowledge of “presence of Christ” to be? If He said He will be with us always “to the end of the age,” then that is something He said. To want it quantified (" a little more indwelling of my tibia, please") doesn’t sound biblical. “The just shall live by faith” is a good qualifier in this discussion…along with an old-fashioned sense of the mystery of it all.
Devil’s advocate. As Christ said He would be with us implicitly personally to the end of the age, then that has to be invoked. How we feel about it is irrelevant. What we feel is us. Psychology rule 101. Our reaction to the idea, to the invocation. Who thinks, feels what we think, feel? We do. We may feel that our evanescent feelings are transpersonal, that He is making us feel, stirred, by the spirit, but, we will never know until we die. Hence the poignant question was, is that you Lord?
And I have had proportionately intense, rare episodes of that.
In a moment of weakness just last weekend I had the intimation of ‘could you be there’ regardless. Regardless of knowledge? What was Paul persecuting? I reached. No. Nothing to grasp. But brute fact.
Exactly. The inner testimony of the Holy Spirit is weak and unreliable. Sometimes you feel “something”, sometimes you don’t.
If you have not experienced it how can you claim such a thing!
I have experienced it. I do experience it, so I know and you do not.
It is an experience beyond your comprehension.
Richard
Thanks for sharing this honestly. Your question touches on something many believers wrestle with.
Back to your original question: I would say no, there’s no way to be 100% empirically certain. Christian faith involves trust in testimony and experience—not laboratory certainty.
Why the “feeling” standard is problematic:
The evangelical emphasis on constantly “feeling Christ’s presence” can be deeply problematic. Feelings fluctuate based on sleep, stress, brain chemistry, life circumstances. Many people deconvert precisely because they’re told this feeling should be constant, and when it isn’t, they conclude it’s not real.
Different Christian traditions handle this differently—some emphasize sacraments and community, others Scripture’s promises over subjective experience, still others acknowledge “dark nights of the soul” as normal parts of mature faith.
The mechanism question:
You might be thinking: “But if God influences thoughts, and thoughts are electrical signals governed by physics, how does that work?” That’s exactly the kind of question this forum explores.
Some theologians and scientists have proposed that quantum indeterminacy provides “room” for divine action. At the quantum scale, outcomes are probabilistic rather than deterministic. God might influence which outcome occurs within the probability distribution without violating conservation laws. Since quantum effects can amplify to neural processes, this could allow divine influence on thoughts—causing electrons to collapse their wavefunctions in particular ways.
But even if that’s the mechanism, it still wouldn’t give you certainty. We’d have no way to empirically distinguish “God-guided quantum collapse” from “random quantum collapse.” The epistemological problem remains even if we solve the mechanism problem.
Alternatively, classical theism suggests God works through natural processes as primary cause, not as an additional physical force. God’s action and natural causation operate at different levels of explanation—like “the water boils because molecules are excited” and “because I want tea” are both true.
The honest answer IMO:
We don’t know the mechanism with certainty. But if the standard is “100% certainty” that eliminates the need for trust, then faith by definition can’t meet that—and perhaps isn’t meant to. Faith involves trust despite uncertainty. That doesn’t make it unreasonable—we trust people and historical claims without 100% certainty all the time. But faith and empirical verification are different categories. And for me, these subjective experiences do tend to produce positive outcomes in my life, challenging me to be more kind, forgiving, loving, helpful, humble, thankful, etc.
I wonder what you might accept as evidence of “Christ dwelling in you” if not feelings? And what led you to conclude the feelings in the past you experienced weren’t Christ’s presence? I’m curious about your process.
It certainly isn’t quantum indeterminacy. AKA Orch OR, which sounds like Scientology.
By the Spirit, is the ultimate orthodox explanation.
Exactly. I left evangelicalism and became Lutheran due to the emotional roller coaster ride of needing to feel Christ’s presence for assurance of salvation. I underwent the born again “process” multiple times due to not “feeling” secure in my eternal security. One Southern Baptist pastor (former president of the SBC) said he repeated the born again experience over 5,000 times when he was young due to the same insecurity. I was certain at times that I felt the Lord’s presence but at other times I wondered: Maybe the presence I feel inside is just me. Maybe the still small voice I hear is just my inner dialogue with myself. It was deeply disturbing.
The emotional roller coaster of my eternal security being based on MY (genuine) decision for Christ (Did I fully repent? Did I fully surrender to Christ?) got to be too much. And it wasn’t just me. Other members of my evangelical church would suddenly walk the aisle during the “invitation” and repeat the born again experience because they weren’t sure they had done “it” correctly. Presidents of the SBC were repeating their born again experience…just to be sure.
I started reading Martin Luther. I came to see that salvation is 100% God. I as a sinner have no part in my salvation. According to Luther, it is the (supernatural) power of God’s Word that saves, not good works, and not my “decision for Christ”. God can use his Word to save when someone hears the Word preached or when someone reads the Bible. And, God can use the power of his Word to save in Baptism. And yes, God saves babies. How can God save babies? Because salvation does not depend on the baby (or the adult) making a decision. God saves whom he has elected! Therefore he can save his elect at the time and with the means that he chooses.
(As background, I prayed to Jesus to save me when I was nine years old. I was baptized shortly thereafter in my Baptist church.) I asked a Lutheran pastor when he believed I had been saved. I assumed he would say “when you were baptized”. He said, “when you prayed to Jesus to save you when you were nine years old.” What?? God saved me when I cried out to him to save me at the age of nine. My baptism is my objective proof that he saved me, but I was saved prior to my baptism.
I loved Lutheran Christianity. No more emotional roller coaster regarding my eternal security. I was saved in a “born again” experience at the age of nine. To Lutherans, my baptism in a Baptist church is God’s objective seal of my salvation. My baptism is my objective proof. I don’t need to feel anything inside to know I’m saved. I was so happy!
By the time I reached the age of 18 I had probably “asked Jesus into my heart” 5,000 times. I started somewhere around age 4 when I approached my parents one Saturday morning asking how someone could know that they were going to heaven. They carefully led me down the “Romans Road to Salvation,” and I gave Jesus his first invitation into my heart.
JD Greear, Southern Baptist pastor and former president of the SBC
Source: Should We Stop Asking Jesus Into Our Hearts? - Christianity Today
There are trite answers, sympathetic answers, look down your nose I am saved answers, but each person has their own doubts to overcome. Sorry, nothing I can say can overturn your experiences and doubts. I am guessing that through it all you are still trying to find a concrete and obvious proof to bolster your doubts and it has not been forthcoming. It would be so much easier if an Angel appeared and greeted you, or God showed Himself directly. but that is why it is called faith.
Richard
If a whole universe from nothing doesn’t convince us God exists, why should an angel appearing from thin air? Just a hallucination like Jesus’s original followers had.
Vinnie
Universes don’t come from nothing. That’s unnecessarily infinitely more complex.
I’d welcome an incontrovertible angel every eye seeing.
Neither Paul nor the Twelve (save for John, maybe) believed in the Resurrection until the resurrected Jesus appeared to them. Why is it wrong for me to require the same quality of evidence to believe such a fantastical claim?
You may believe that our universe came from nothing but you can’t prove it as a fact.
paul got it whether he wanted it or not. Let’s ignore him.
The disciples? They had lived with Him for three years. All they knew was the Physical Jesus.
I never knew the physical Jesus. My knowledge and belief is based on believing Scripture and other witnesses. Thomas is the main witness that proved the other Disciples were not just making it u or trying to cheer him up. because of Thomas, I do not have to see the risen Jesus for myself.
Faith does not need empiracle proof, it can be sparked by witness, as long as you believe the witness, I believe what Scripture tells me about jesus, so why should i ask for my own personal proof?
But, like i have said earlier, once you have got past that need then other things can “prove” your faith. In truth, I have seen and experienced so much I could not deny God or my faith. Any doubts that could occur are dismissed even before they take hold. In terms of balance, there is nothing that could shake my faith up until I die, and then it is too late.
Maybe you are right? But it will take more than Pascal’s wager t change your mind. You need to actually want, even need a faith. i am not convinced that you are anywhere near that.
John Wesley preached faith until he found it. I think that is a bit extreme, but it worked for him. Me? I had it easy, and can sit back and relax in the peace that passeth all understanding. Lucky me!
It might seem trite or condescending for me to offer sympathy or genuine empathy for your struggles and doubts, but that is the limit of my help, unless you decide to trust me. And there is no reason on this earth why you should.
Richard
1 Corinthians 15:17. “…and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless;. . .”
Behavioral and psychological analysis?
Scripture suggests that an individual truly filled with the spirit of God dwelling within , would begin to show signs of Behavior and psychological modification.
Just a thought .
When I was a Christian I felt that God answered my prayers just like every other Christian. But what was I asking Him for? Answer: Bless me, bless my family, bless my food, help me pass this exam, help me get this job. I usually got what I hoped for. Yes, sometimes something unusual would happen that I would perceive as an act of God. But Jesus never did ANYTHING that was truly impossible; something that could not be explained as a rare but natural event. So were those really answered prayers?
Forgive me, but your prayers sounded a little self centered.
Why did you want something that was unnatural? That sounds like wanting a sign or proof (again)
Why must the answer to a prayer be yes?
i am sorry, but it sounds like you never really believed. I will let you into a scret. When I went to College I was a confident Cristian but had neever come across tru Charistmatic Christians. I new of the Holy Spirit, I had no reason not to beleive that I had the holy spirit, except that i had never seen any signs of it.(He she it) When I mixed with other Christians in the Christian Union it because apparent that even if i thought i had the Holy Spirit, they did not! (I refused to try and speak in tongues) It wasn’t until I allowed someone to pray over me that they believed I had been “done”. Nothing actually changed. I still refused to speak in tongues (I still don’t) but I had provided their criteria, so it must have happened!
I never did anything spectacular for many years. The fact that I have is neither here nor there, it was never a criteria for me. I can regale you with miracle stories but, as I have said elsewhere they are meaningless without you being present.
I have had my share of doubts in the past, it is only now that i feel really secure. The point is, my faith was tested by so called fellow Christians, because I did not match up to their expectations. At the time I had to deceive to be accepted. Was I spirit filled already? Almost certainly yes, but because it was not in a spectacular rush, it was not provable! Many Christians are as stubborn as you. They have specific criteria or proofs that they need fulfilling.
“Do not put the Lord your God to the test”
Again it is trite, but true. (and a very convenient get out clause)
I am sure this won’t help you in the slightest, but it might give you some thing to chew over.
I cannot imbue faith, and from a distance I can’t lay my hands on you. There is a combination of trust and blind faith that precedes the assurance I have, it is different for each person and may never arrive at all. Sorry and all that
Richard
So, what must I do to be (eternally) saved, Richard?
I sincerely at the age of nine:
-prayed to Jesus to forgive me of all my sins.
-asked Jesus to come into my heart to be my Lord and Savior.
-asked Jesus to be ruler of my life and my future. I surrendered full control to Him.