Stephen Hawking famously declared, "Philosophy is dead" in a statement that was a critique of metaphysics and other branches of philosophy that he felt had failed to keep up with scientific progress, particularly in explaining the universe’s origin. He argued that science, not philosophy, now answers the fundamental questions about existence and that the universe can be explained by its own laws. He once quipped, “A physicist can’t allow his calculations to be muddled by a belief in a supernatural creator”.
Agreed. It’s like wondering why a metal detector isn’t detecting wood under the sand.
Well, I for one would never describe such events as unmistakable miracles. My issue is the idea that because we can offer a potential naturalistic explanation for a very rare healing that involved a lot of prayer, we should axiomatically assume that is true for all of them or that God could not have acted here. I mean, that is just an irreconcilable difference between being a Christian and an atheist I suppose. I follow Jesus in thinking supernatural miracles are possible and that sometimes our faith leads us to think they occurred. I wouldn’t tell you a rare remission of cancer is an inexplicable proof of God that you cannot honestly deny. Never. But I feel free in believing it from time to time and feel even freer to call out a philosophy that denies it universally going in.
I think why anything bothers to exist at all is the real and unmistakable miracle. The existence of every single thing in the entire universe is a supernatural miracle. That is what creation ex nihilo and metaphysics entails from a being that is pure act. I personally don’t need to lower my standards and look for limbs regrowing or impossible diseases curing to prove God. Everything in the entire universe is unmistakable proof of God at all times. The Christians always looking for supernatural proof are the ones who have fallen into a deist trap and embrace a mechanistic and regrettable model of God. Supernatural miracles are simply rare instances where we think God goes beyond the natural order of things. I simply cannot agree with a carte blanche denial of them. Again, because of Jesus.
My trust in Jesus is greater than my trust in men with extreme intellectual gifts, but also with-- dare I say, frail intellectual egos, that try to put all of reality in a small box they can control and master and have ownership over. And that is not meant to be an insult. I think we all have a desire to control things and by explaining things we psychologically can give ourselves power over them. The sin or certainty doesn’t apply only to believers. That is how I see philosophical naturalism.
No doubt. And will probably continue being actively ‘dead’ and dying for many centuries to come - for as long as humanity is around. Sorta like God, whose funeral has been celebrated in nearly every century it seems - certainly all the recent ones. No reason to think we won’t still be busy crucifying and disbelieving God in all the future centuries too. At least for as long as we’re still in charge of all our little mini kingdoms and empires.
I believe we can test it objectively. The scriptures claim a supernatural transformation of a person’s behavior into that which is closer to that of Christ, with the signs being the fruits of the spirit. However, I do not see any evidence of that which can not be explained naturalisticly, which for example, include psychological/somatic causes. By supernatural, I mean a mechanism that is not possible by the brain, My take is that as a former believer, never have I felt the presense or comfort which was promised. And I doubt that it is true that God exsists since I see many Christians who still have failed to have fruits. That, I would say, is evidence against the prescense of Christ within a believer.
T_aquaticus
(The Friendly Neighborhood Atheist)
311
First off, I haven’t taken any offense to anything people have said in this thread, and I do very much appreciate your post.
I was just relating a general trend I have seen in some discussions which can include contradictory positions. I have come across statements from a single person where they say in one breath that God’s miracles are obvious, and in the next will claim that no miracle will be obvious because it would strip us of free will. Hey, I get it. This stuff isn’t easy, and it’s easy to get things a bit turned around on these topics. It just gets a bit frustrating at times because it’s like nailing jello to a tree.
That is a position I can understand and respect. It isn’t too far away from what I heard quite often in the church I grew up in.
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T_aquaticus
(The Friendly Neighborhood Atheist)
312
Personally, I don’t adhere to that axiom. At the same time, using the old saw, when I hear hoof beats coming towards the crest of a hill I don’t expect to see zebras. So yes, I do heavily lean towards the naturalistic explanation, but still acknowledge that there is no way to rule out the supernatural.
Attached to this point, we wouldn’t be able to explain how anything works in nature if we had to give supernatural explanations equal weight in all circumstances.
Well, it appears we are back to unmistakable miracles.
Okay I see where you are coming from and I appreciate your clarification. But you’re exactly right, it’s very easy to get turned around in conversations and like I said before it gets messy when you have so many different people throwing around different thoughts. But in some sense, I’m glad it’s kinda messy. Life would be a lot more boring if we were given all the info up front. I think it all keeps us humble in telling us that we don’t have all the certainty we would like to have. We all have contradictions in our beliefs. I just wanna make sure that the way I discuss my beliefs are respectful to the other person, and seeing the other with all good faith possible.
I’ll say though that I don’t think you need a miracle to believe that God exists as many people have demonstrated lol. Back to the miracles. This discussion does bring up the question of how all of us bring our assumptions to how the “spiritual” world would interact with the “material” world. I wonder if the pre-enlightenment thinking of the spiritual realm working out the laws of physics or whatnot has tainted what a better understanding of the “spiritual” world is. Like just because we have assumed the “spiritual” world to act in one way and our current understanding of the natural world limits that kind of interpretation, once again I wonder if we actually have to throw out the spiritual realm or “re-imagine” (ugh that’s a dangerous word) how the spiritual realm operates. And it’s clear that other forum users have articulated how the '“Spiritual” world could interact with the natural world by the means of natural laws. Just something to consider on both sides when both theists and non-theists assume how the spiritual realm is supposed to operate.
The same place we got logic, meaning, and moral law — none of which show up under a microscope either. Some tools are conceptual because some realities are.
I doubt that belief in God will die out any time soon. Belief in an omnipotent supernatural being who cares about you, looks out for you, and occasionally performs miracles for you is just too appealing and comforting to let go of. Why abandon such a comforting worldview for the cold, harsh reality of a-theism: You are on your own, buddy. No one is looking out for you. This life is it. Enjoy it because death is the end.
I wish I could believe the Christian worldview again. I really do. I was so happy and content as a Christian. But once you no longer believe it is true, the genie is out of the bottle. You can’t put it back in the bottle again. It would be like me trying to believe in Santa Claus again. I loved Santa Claus as a kid. It truly would be wonderful if the jolly old fella existed. But he doesn’t. There is no good evidence that he does. No matter how much I want to believe in Santa my brain knows the evidence says he is not real. Santa is just a folktale. Nothing more. Unfortunately, that is how I now see Jesus, the resurrected Christ. Wonderful tale. Nothing more.