But back to the OP, why ask such a closed question to which the only possible answer is no? What purpose does it serve? If I still believed that’s how I’d answer. It couldn’t, didn’t, affect my faith at all. Although my faith ultimately was based on a false axiom.
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Personal witness would change that, but, unfortunately, if you need to see to believe, it will not happen. Faith comes first.
Richard
And what was that false axiom?
Personal witness changed it for the worse. When I was a Christian.
Generally, despite the chaos, that the Holy Spirit preserved the truth.
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I guess that means you never witnessed it. Sorry, but i have,
My word should not be enough though.
Richard
Your word is true for you. Not for me. Even with multiple witnesses. The least form of evidence. It cannot be under any circumstances. And it wasn’t when I believed. Eventually. I have my own personal miracles which still stop me in my tracks. Right now. But they are all in the territory of probability. Not overturning of the laws of physics. Yours may well include eve that. And if I’d been there, I may well have seen exactly what you saw. And been gobsmacked by it. It changes nothing. There will have been an entirely natural explanation.
Yeah, good luck with that. You might have to change your definition of natural. It doesn’t really matter. miracles are not about the supernatural or magic, they are practical manifestations of God’s will. Timing and circumstance are probably more important that explanations of how. It is a shame though. Everyone needs a bit of mystery and wonder in their life. It would be boring to explain away everything.
Richard
Spontaneous remission is rare, but is known. Most consider it to be a natural process. Interestingly, spontaneous remission is often linked to viral or bacterial infections which seems to point to involvement of the immune system. In much the same way, those with suppressed immune systems are widely known to have a higher cancer risk.
Does this mean God wasn’t involved? There’s no way to determine that. Is every case of spontaneous remission an act of God, including cases where the patient is not religious or prays to a different deity? Again, impossible to know. I suspect the same thing could be said of most recoveries from illness.
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If nothing else, when Christians visit people who are sick the human interaction and support can go a LONG way towards improving that persons health. I often struggle to find the right words to say when I visit loved ones who are in tough medical situations, and I just have to remind myself that just being there for people often matters a lot more than the jumble of awkward words that I stumble through.
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Very rare health recoveries occur in all cultures and belief systems. The fact is that Christians recover from illness at no higher rate than anyone else.
That is a bold statement. In scientific terms it would be rejected without evidence or data. Besides, you need to factor in the number of people specifically prayed over, or who asked for healing as opposed to the general well being and what will be nature of most prayers. I have met many clerics who do not expect miraculous healing and therefore have never seen or been a part of it.
Spiritual haling is not a simple subject or the result of a quick hopeful prayer.
Richard
Miracles are rare, but known.
In this context, most consider all processes natural. So that that does not say much except restate a presumption.
I suspect for Christians on a rational level, it is difficult to tell whether something like this is just a regular part of nature of if God went beyond nature in a specific instance. But on an emotional level, “praise God” is never a bad posture to take at any time.
But a scientists simply assuming spontaneous remission of cancer is natural in origin does not make it so. Everything is going to be tied to “well known mechanisms.” The most troubling argument against spontaneous cancer healings for Christians is probably more about not being able to make sense with the cases that do occur with those that don’t. We can’t make sense of the data or why children die or why an abusive jerk might be healed. We are left with “God works in mysterious ways” to sometimes go beyond nature and to sometimes not.
Vinnie
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I remember a certain olympic hockey match when I was a kid. I believe it was called the Miracle on Ice. However, I don’t think many are citing the supernatural.
So then why aren’t people recovering from colds cited as miracles?
Medicine has done quite well for itself searching out natural mechanisms related to health. Miracles are a matter of faith, and I think that is where we can find common understanding.
Not in dispute. Supernatural means super-natural. That presumes a natural order to things. Can’t have the other without the first one being well established.
They could be, whether cited that way or not. I wouldn’t know with 100% certainty. I could only assume natural mechanisms are largely responsible. But I think spontaneous remissions of cancer is not considered mundane by most people like a ball falling every time it’s released or a common cold. Not to mention, I doubt the prayer and intense emotion is as strong for a cold vs the life altering/ending/gut wrenching news of cancer. Whole chains start whereas I doubt people are praying and asking God to make sure that when they release a ball, it falls to the ground.
As Christians we have more data (wink wink) to consider than you. We believe in a God who came to earth and told us to pray and ask for stuff and he also told us the parable of the persistent widow. All of these things are difficult to make sense of but we have warrant for presuming things like the spontaneous remission of cancer could be genuine miracles where God used natural mechanisms or supernatural ones that go beyond the natural order to even jumpstart them.
There is a difference between saying I have proof this is a supernatural miracle with no known natural mechanisms and I believe it is one. What I strenuously disagree with is when philosophical naturalists axiomatically assuming every example ever, is not or cannot be miraculous in nature. Jesus disagrees and I follow Him so naturally I adopt that posture.
Vinnie
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So it is just the rarity of spontaneous remission, in both believers and non-believers, that makes a difference.
As I think we have discussed before, we apparently have different views on what is and isn’t data.
The JREF Million Dollar Prize is an interesting aside.
Needless to say, the prize was never claimed. This wasn’t because philosophical naturalists refused to consider any evidence, but rather the failure of anyone to demonstrate anything paranormal or supernatural in a fair experiment.
Why might I have to do that? I have never encountered anything, including in any claim by another, that can’t be explained scientismically.
So you have seen what I have seen, or the any others who claim what I do…
Get real.
Spiritual healing or events are not a public circus, or even for the general view. It is private, very private and beyond your vision.
Richard
Ahaa! an Apistosism.
Hello @T_aquaticus
I’m sure you have heard the common counterpoint to this argument: forcing the supernatural’s doesn’t seem to go very well in most places, times, and contexts. Or one may say from Scripture, don’t put the Lord to a foolish test. I don’t really want to beat those dead horses dead, but figured to state what you’ve probably heard before to be thorough.
One thing I wonder when we argue whether or not a unlikely natural phenomena has a supernatural “undertone” or "base layer”, I feel like it’s just another way of asking whether the supernatural is “necessary”. If SR can offer an explanation of cancers disappearing, the supernatural is unnecessary. I like the take however that God can use the natural world (through whatever means) to do unlikely but natural things. For me, I don’t like the arguments that God has to be necessary because I’m gaining a emerging sense that God will always leave a backdoor to unbelief or a natural explanation. I do believe miracles exist but I don’t think God is forcing anyone’s hand to make them believe (though vocational callings might be a different story). We can always dismiss the directly supernatural expierences and the natural phenomena that have a prior cause in God himself, and it wouldn’t surprise me if God designed it that way. I understand that many want evidence and that the evidence is uncompelling in our modern age for many, so I lament again the disenchantment of our post-Enlightened world.
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