Because Adam was not deceived, according to the apostle; i.e. he knew what he was doing. This fits with the theme in the Pentateuch that knowing, deliberate sin is significantly worse than accidental sin or sin done under duress or deception.
Presumably if Adam had refused the fruit then perhaps there would have been a solution short of booting them from the Garden – but then that assumes the story is meant to be taken as history rather than illustrating the seriousness of knowing, deliberate sin.
The story doesn’t actually show that. At most it shows that some people can be deceived and sin while others who aren’t deceived may go along.
The only point at which “not able not to sin” comes into play is after that initial rebellion.
That goes into pure conjecture; we have no indication as to whether an answer is even possible.
What we might say is that if the only sin happened due to deception then there might have been a solution, but that’s based on the idea that it was Adam’s sin that counted.
Even if these articles do have some merit in amongst the barrage of quote mining and claims of dubious veracity and taking far too long to get to the point, they still don’t provide a shred of justification for reducing the age of either the universe or the earth down to just six thousand years. There are far too many other robust, high-precision, rigorously cross-checked, mathematically tight, completely unambiguous lines of evidence that set lower limits on the age of the earth and the age of the universe far, far higher than that without making untestable assumptions or secularist presuppositions.
Hebrew does something like that when it uses plural nouns with verbs in the singular. Most commonly known is “elohim” for God, but the words for “heaven” and even “life” are frequently used that way, showing either a greater unity or an emphasis on richness.
Interestingly once while driving I-5 my Garmin GPS navigator announced “satellite error” just as it jumped my position from right on I-5 to beyond the greenway, showing me driving through what was primarily trees, and shortly thereafter showed me crossing a river where there was no bridge. This lasted maybe twenty seconds before my car icon jumped sideways back onto the freeway line.
It emphasized to me just how dependent we’ve become on some pretty outrageous physics without even thinking about it.
Besides which, the Earth wouldn’t be inside the huge mass, it would be just above the event horizon (for just an instant before tidal forces tore it to shreds).
Seems kind of bizarre to absolutely depend on God’s rules for the universe continuing the same always and everywhere, then otherwise effectively throwing them in the trash as inconvenient.
My favorite is still measuring the ages of rocks in the lab, using data obtained in the lab, no assumptions or “historical science” needed; the Himalayas come in at hundreds of thousands of years old at a minimum, more probably millions.
Even if the earth is at the center of the galaxy, and that is at the center of the universe, that order of time dilation is garbage - you are free to solve the equations for yourself. It’s up to you, but I would not want to be so credulous as to believe any whacked out idea someone puts out there just because it happens to align with my preferences.
The fundamental forces are at just the right values to allow for stellar nuclear synthesis of the vital elements to be dispersed into space and allow the formation of rocky planets and emergence of life. The constants of nature are at the right values to permit the billions of years of cosmic evolution required for the process to unfold.
The fine tuning of the universe is intriguing, don’t you agree?
the idea of equating a galactocentric universe to a black hole misses the point.
If we are indeed near the centre of a finite mass universe, and somewhere near the centre of the universe, then according to Einstein’s general relativity or Invariance Theory of the constant speed of c, the time dilation would occur en route to Earth as light from very distant galaxies, travels into the centre of the gravity well. The enormous distances between objects with large masses is a factor that may result in time dilation in our galaxy from a finite universe perspective, being to all intents and purposes imperceptible to an observer within the galaxy.
It also may be that time dilation may not be caused from being somewhere near the centre of mass of the universe.
Consider a quote in Scientific American from a colleague of Stephen Hawking the respected emeritus distinguished professor, cosmologist George Ellis:
“People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations” Ellis argues. “For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its centre, and you cannot disprove it based on observations.” Ellis has published a paper on this. “You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that.
What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.”
It is quite clear to me that a finite mass universe is a superior explanation for the evidence we presently have than the no-centre, boundless universe assumed to obey the ‘cosmological principle’ that is promoted by materialist atheists. From what I have seen, real, empirical observational evidence appears to indicate that the universe does indeed have a geographic centre, as I have mentioned previously, galaxies appear to have a large-scale structure that appears to be centred somewhere near our galaxy.
There may well be another explanation entirely such as an increasing velocity of the expansion of space, time dilation results, thus the time dilation is not caused by gravitational effects, though of course it may contribute also, but is caused by enormous accelerated stretching forces of the fabric of space.
Put into the context of the creation account of Genesis, this may explain that on Day 4, an observer on a very distant galaxy would experience normal time as we experience it in their local frame of reference but within the accelerating expanding universe time would be moving at an enormous rate compared to time that was transpiring here on Earth simultaneously.
If this is indeed what happened from Creation in the beginning, then light traveling from galaxies at the far reaches of space may well reach the Earth during the Creation week, thus for the first people, the night sky would be full of the stars from the universe as this effect from the enormous accelerated stretching forces of the fabric of space would allow Earth time for distant starlight from the galaxies being created on the fourth day to travel to Earth and be visible to Adam and Eve.
Again, it’s the fourth day as measured by Earth clocks, the clocks the Bible uses.
It is worth stating here that regardless of what science is thought to tell us, the absolute authority and trustworthiness of the Holy Bible must not be compromised by old or new hypotheses of man’s feeble understandings using science. The big bang has many unsolved problems that won’t go away, and I suggest that is because the whole theory is based on wrong premises.
Our Holy Creator God possesses infinite knowledge. If we build our science and research processes on a foundation that accepts His Word is true rather than philosophical based assumptions that the Bible is irrelevant, it is my belief that as in the great scientific discoveries of the past few centuries by good Christian men, our current scientific endeavours to understand the Creation are much more likely to result in profound new understandings of how the Creation operates, i.e., thinking God’s thoughts after Him, to quote Johannes Kepler early astronomer scientist from the past.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Yes the fine tuning of the fundamental constants are awe inspiring and truly point to an unimaginably brilliant Designer and Creator who is able to balance all the forces we know of and no doubt many others we don’t have a clue about. At least on that we can agree!
But as to your quoted text here, I am not claiming any such thing!
You appear to be fixated on what was concluded as a possibility in the RATE project, but whether that is true or not I sure don’t know, nor does anyone else if they’re honest.
And no one that I know of, is trying to squeeze anything into anything, by altering fundamental constants.
All I am saying is that in Truth, we understand very little about the mechanics of the universe, even less about Creation, and the Light-time travel problems for both creationists and big bangers is indeed difficult. But there are possible solutions that just go to show that what may appear to some to be intractable may well be solved n the future .
The resources that Bible believing Christians doing scientific research receive is so minute compared to the funding that goes into secular research that it is a wonder that any is done at all, let alone punching well above our weight. Sure mockers will mock, that happened in the past and it will happen in the future!
It needs to be stated that for a great deal of the work being done, it is through faithful believers donating of their own money and the many Christians who are scientists doing their research with much less financial reward than they would obtain from secular research institution; the research work is being done because of their Love for our Creator, Lord and Saviour and their desire to see the Gospel spread around the world.
Not only can stars form naturally apart from dark matter, given the basic laws of physics gravitational collapse is necessary and inevitable.
We can even see a number protoplanetary disks in the process of planet formation, such as TW Hydrae where shadowing on the orbiting dust has been tracked over time.
Polar jets from forming stars still accreting material have been observed, as well as cavities being formed by radiation pressure from young stars. Despite YEC denial, theory and empirical observational science have confirmed that stars can and do form, now as always.
No Jon, you are missing the point. Time dilation does not work like that.
The reason why I spoke about a black hole is that that is one of only two ways that you can get time dilation of that magnitude. The other being two observers moving past each other at relativistic speeds.
If you want to try and argue that time dilation does work like that, then you need to explain how it works like that as a mathematical model. In other words, explain precisely which reference frames you are considering, cite the relevant equations, and put some actual numbers into them.
Because until and unless you provide that precise kind of detail, then neither I nor anyone else has a scooby doo what on earth you are talking about. Quote mining Stephen Hawking’s colleagues isn’t going to cut it any more than quote mining a parrot.
It’s as simple as this. No accelerated nuclear decay == no young earth. Period. End of story.
God’s Word: Sun, stand still over Gibeon; And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.’ So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped
IF Morris consistent to what he said, then Morris will say: I believe that sun stop moving above Gibeon area, and the moon stop moving above Valley of Aijalon area because it is absolutely true this event happened
But I still can’t find on the internet to get an information whether Morris believe or not that God’s Word.
Has YEC proposed a verse which they claim something like: “you see, this verse clearly say that science must fit Scripture” ?
But my question is actually: “is there any verse which say that science must fit Scripture” ?
If there is not, then (at least to me), “science must fit Scripture” is YEC’s own invention.
LOL, but then (to me) they indirectly admit that “science must fit Scripture” is also a bug
thanks for your thoughts, I reject the statement you have made.
What you are saying here goes against everything we know about star formation!
If what you say is true, what caused the star and for that matter the galaxies to condense and form?
Also, if you believe that dark matter and dark energy exist, how would you know they are not involved in any event in the universe?
Why? It is not just relevant to the problem of what holds galaxies together—i.e. the significant deficiency of matter in spiral galaxies according to standard Newtonian physics, the dark matter in galaxies is claimed to comprise as much as 85% of the matter of a galaxy.
The dark matter problem extends to all scales in the universe, including clusters, superclusters that supposedly have dark matter account for 99.9% of the matter in the supercluster, and the whole universe itself.
The common figure for the fraction of dark matter in the universe is about 24% of total mass/energy as compared to about 4% normal matter. That’s about 7 times the amount of dark matter as normal matter. The rest of mass/energy content is claimed to be the other exotic stuff called dark energy, comprising about 72% of the total.
Dark matter is needed everywhere. According to the simulations of cosmologists and astrophysicists, without it nothing in the universe as we see it could have formed naturalistically.
But of course, it is really yet another smoke and mirrors assumption to rescue big bang cosmology from crashing onto the rocks of being falsified!
That’s because, dark matter and dark energy DO NOT EXIST!
This is interesting, and I just realize that if the story is taken as literal/history, then there’s nothing to be learned. YEC will just create another “fairytale” to accomodate if Adam not eat the fruit but Eve.
Thanks for the explanation, Roymond.
But to be honest, I still can’t see that the story before the fall can be concluded: “before the fall, human is able to sin and also able not to sin”. Besides (at least to me), the statement open the possibility to raise a question, for example “what if both of them never sin?”.
Dear James,
Well I for one do not believe that science must fit scripture!
What utter nonsense!
This appears to be yet another Straw Man argument to bash Bible believing Christians over the head with.
If we approach science from a Biblical perspective as was the case in the past several hundred years, I believe we would make far more progress than we presently do under the secular atheist paradigm.
Hi James,
Well, no, if the universe is not isotropic, and has a geometric centre, the gravity at the centre would not resemble a black hole, but time dilation may well be a real result relative to locations very distant from the centre, such as out at the edge of the universe where matter ceases to exist.
At a location in space close to a black hole, the highly concentrated gravity field near to the event horizon would be massive and very destructive to normal matter.
However, time dilation may well be a valid effect from a location in space close to the mass geometric centre of a finite extent universe that will have a gravity field that is probably uniform, stable and constant, and would not have the same destructive effect of massively compressing matter as we presently believe the gravity in a black hole does.
Given your certitude, you must have a compelling alternate model for the gravitational lensing of supernova Refsdal. As you must be aware, dark matter was not conceived to support the Big Bang, but to account for observation of gravitational effects for which there was insufficient luminous sources. There are various candidates, but the question remains unresolved. When the answer is determined, it will happen without the help of YEC apologists, just like YEC was useless for resolving the solar neutrino deficit. Creation science never solves anything.
The gravitationally lensed supernova Refsdal appeared in multiple images produced through gravitational lensing by a massive foreground galaxy cluster. After the supernova appeared in 2014, lens models of the galaxy cluster predicted that an additional image of the supernova would appear in 2015, which was subsequently observed. We use the time delays between the images to perform a blinded measurement of the expansion rate of the Universe, quantified by the Hubble constant (H 0). Using eight cluster lens models, we infer H0=64.8−4.3+4.4 kilometers per second per megaparsec. Using the two models most consistent with the observations, we find H0=66.6−3.3+4.1 kilometers per second per megaparsec. The observations are best reproduced by models that assign dark-matter halos to individual galaxies and the overall cluster.
Something that has fascinated me for years is that none of this – or cell phones, for that matter – would be possible without a branch of mathematics called “fractals”: it’s fractals that made it possible to put a powerful antenna inside a box that will fit in your hand.
YEC requires compromising it because it is based on a definition of truth that comes from a worldview that really didn’t exist until the early twentieth century.
You have yet to show us where in the scriptures we are told that they are intended to teach science.
Bible-believing Christians are just as eligible for funding as anyone else, they just have to be doing science. I had a number of such professors.
