Is there a standpoint from which the creation days in Genesis 1 are described as 24 hours per day?

[Burrawang]

@Fred_W

Hi Jon, I appreciate the dialog. I am not a YEC. I believe that God’s creation, existing without any human input, is a more reliable source of knowledge about the details of how it was formed than any written text using characters, words and meaning created by man. In other words, the creation tells us how to interpret Genesis, not the other way around.

Hi Fred, thank you for your detailed accounts of what you believe and how you perceive what I expect you think people like myself believe.

I will try and be as succinct as I can. To be a Christian means that you are a follower of Jesus Christ.
The Bible clearly teaches us that Jesus Himself, who is the Creator and part of the Holy Trinity IS God, He holds the holy scriptures in absolute highest regard for accuracy and inerrancy. Thus, followers of Jesus or as He is known in Hebrew, Yeshua HaMashiach must as genuine followers (or disciples if you prefer), accept Scripture in exactly the same way in their beliefs, if they are truly disciples of Jesus.

Jesus knew the Scriptures in detail, and perfectly understood them.
14 But when it was now the middle of the feast, Jesus went up into the temple area, and began to teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, not having been educated?” 16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not My own, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is of God, or I am speaking from Myself. John 7:15

AND

Jesus believed every single word of Scripture. All the prophecies concerning Himself were fulfilled, and He believed beforehand they would be.
“51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then would the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”” 55 At that time Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a man inciting a revolt? Every day I used to sit within the temple grounds teaching, and you did not arrest Me. 56 But all this has taken place so that the Scriptures of the prophets will be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left Him and fled. Matthew 26:53–56

AND

24 And so some of those who were with us went to the tomb, and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.” 25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures. Luke 24:24–27

AND

36 But the testimony I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 Also you do not have His word remaining in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent.
39 You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you accept glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” John 5:36–47

AND

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; on the contrary, I honour My Father, and you dishonour Me. 50 But I am not seeking My glory; there is One who seeks it, and judges. 51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone follows My word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets as well; and yet You say, ‘If anyone follows My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are You? The prophets died too. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him. And if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you; but I do know Him, and I follow His word. 56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and left the temple grounds.
John 8:49-59

AND

19 “Did Moses not give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why are you seeking to kill Me?” 20 The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill You?” 21 Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all are astonished. 22 For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and even on a Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23 If a man receives circumcision on a Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry at Me because I made an entire man well on a Sabbath? 24 Do not judge by the outward appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” John 7:19-24

Jesus believed the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament) was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, even though the pen was held by men:

3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no person is to separate.” Matthew 19:3-6

AND

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, since you do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him: 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.”
41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is He?” They *said to Him, “The son of David.” 43 He *said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying,
44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Your enemies under Your feet”’?
45 Therefore, if David calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” 46 No one was able to offer Him a word in answer, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him any more questions. Matthew 22:31-46

AND

24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.” Mark 12:24-27

Thus, I hope that you can see Phil from these few examples that our Lord Jesus believes scripture to be absolute truth as clearly evident when He taught from them as faithfully recorded in the Bible.

You go on to say a few things, then you state:

@Fred_W

Then light begins to shine and the water is clumsily separated ‘above and below’ the sky.

Why “clumsily” I do not know, except I expect it has something to do with justifying theistic evolution.

@Fred_W

Then all the animals evolve over a couple of days.

No, the animals didn’t “evolve” over a couple days, that is plainly nonsense.
God created the animals in ONE day. The creation by its very nature was a supernatural event!

(No difference whatsoever to the feeble theories of men such as the Big Bang where nothing expanded and became everything in a microsecond, without any coherent cause to commence or stop! Except of course that the creation events were real events.)

@Fred_W

Basic knowledge of the natural world will tell you that water that uniformly covers the entire earth will have nowhere to go without more supernatural ‘creation’ events.

But the reality is that the creation and the flood are supernatural events by their very nature and cause.
As for the water from the flood, it is still there to this very day. As previously mentioned, if the planet was smoothed out, i.e., the mountains pushed down and the ocean basins pushed up to create and even smooth sphere, the water on Earth right now would cover the entire planet to an empirically calculated depth of about 3,000 metres or just short of 10,000 feet of water. There is more than enough water on Earth to explain Noah’s flood from the point of view of having sufficient water. The flood was a supernatural event that reshaped the planet to what we see today. Yes most of the geological sedimentary layers were laid down during the Global flood, which is logical and precisely what you would expect from such a catastrophic event. The Scriptures CAN be trusted to say what they mean and mean what they say.

@Fred_W

Why it took a year for this to happen when the first creation only took six days is a mystery. Maybe doing it quicker would have been too disruptive to the people floating around in the ark.

Yes, why it took a year, is God’s prerogative to take whatever length of time He wished. There were likely very good reasons why He chose a year to perform the transformation of the planet. You may be right, about keeping the ark from too much buffeting. We can only guess, perhaps one day, the Lord will make it known to us why He had the Global flood last one year.

@Fred_W

The historical human events in the Bible may not be factually accurate, but the moral, figurative and symbolic meaning of the stories can still be truth. This is a very brief description of how I understand Genesis.

Thanks for being so candid about what you believe.`

As you are aware, I see Genesis very differently and align my beliefs with the same beliefs that our Lord and Saviour had that Genesis is a historical account of REAL events that transpired a very long six thousand years ago. And Jesus would know as He IS THE CREATOR, He was there, thus I find it very difficult to comprehend why Theistic evolutionists still do not believe the historical accuracy of Genesis in the Bible and must therefore conclude that Jesus is wrong about what occurred.

Therefore, we will have to agree to disagree on the veracity of Genesis as historical fact, which it clearly is.

God Bless,
jon

[St.Roymond]

@Burrawang

He holds the holy scriptures in absolute highest regard for accuracy and inerrancy

That is inference, it is not established by the text.

@Burrawang

Jesus believed every single word of Scripture

Not as you mean it. Jesus freely paraphrased, summarized, and even cited things as scripture that aren’t in the Old Testament writings. This indicates that what He considered authoritative was the concepts, which is what both the Hebrew and Greek words for “word” refer to (e.g. the Decalog is never called “the Ten Commandments” in scripture; it’s called the “ten words”, i.e. ten concepts).

@Burrawang

Jesus believed the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament) was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration

That’s stretching the evidence. What’s clear is that He regarded the entire Tanakh as authoritative.

@Burrawang

our Lord Jesus believes scripture to be absolute truth

Which doesn’t mean He agrees with you – your view of truth comes from scientific materialism; that’s where the modern concept of inerrancy comes from.

@Burrawang

feeble theories of men such as the Big Bang where nothing expanded and became everything in a microsecond, without any coherent cause to commence or stop!

Just want to remind you that the first appearance in history of the idea we call “the Big Bang” was in the work of Hebrew scholars back before Copernicus: from the text of Genesis 1, they concluded that the universe started out smaller than a grain of mustard (idiom for “the smallest possible thing”) and expanded super-rapidly.

@Burrawang

As previously mentioned, if the planet was smoothed out, i.e., the mountains pushed down and the ocean basins pushed up to create and even smooth sphere, the water on Earth right now would cover the entire planet to an empirically calculated depth of about 3,000 metres or just short of 10,000 feet of water.

More science fiction.

This is why young-Earth Creationists are widely despised – the whole scheme makes God look like a capricious mad scientist in a bad science fiction story.

@Burrawang

Yes most of the geological sedimentary layers were laid down during the Global flood, which is logical and precisely what you would expect from such a catastrophic event.

No – you have been told repeatedly, and it has been explained numerous times, that what we see in the earth’s surface geology could not have resulted from a worldwide flood. Whoever you are using as an authority is lying.

@Burrawang

The Scriptures CAN be trusted to say what they mean and mean what they say.

Only if you read them as what they are: ancient literature in an ancient language with ancient literary genres written within an ancient worldview. If you don’t read them that way, you’re making stuff up all along the way.

YECists refuse to do this, which tells me that they have no respect for the writers or the Holy Spirit Who selected those writers or for the original audience that the scriptures were written for.

@Burrawang

I see Genesis very differently and align my beliefs with the same beliefs that our Lord and Saviour had that Genesis is a historical account of REAL events

That’s the view you impute to Him, but it cannot be defended from the scriptures. All that can be said from the scriptures is that our Lord regarded the ancient scriptures as authoritative.

@Burrawang

I find it very difficult to comprehend why Theistic evolutionists still do not believe the historical accuracy of Genesis in the Bible

I don’t know why they don’t, but I know why I do: because the writing in Genesis do not fit that sort of writing. “Historical narrative” wasn’t a genre that existed! Neither of the two genres that constitute the first Creation account intends to be taken as history.

[Burrawang]

@St.Roymond

@Burrawang

es most of the geological sedimentary layers were laid down during the Global flood, which is logical and precisely what you would expect from such a catastrophic event.

No – you have been told repeatedly, and it has been explained numerous times, that what we see in the earth’s surface geology could not have resulted from a worldwide flood. Whoever you are using as an authority is lying.

Dear Roymond, the baseless claims that you repetitively make appear to me at least to be more than likely to be plain wrong. Thus we will have to agree to disagree.

Making the rebuke, “you have been told” is not only disappointingly derogatory but also presupposes that you’re an absolute authority on the Earth’s geology and history, which going from what I have read here, quite evidently is not the case.

What is clear though, from the many comments you have made, is that you do not understand what is obvious and is clearly seen, that the vast and continuous sedimentary sheets across the entire planet, both on the continents and under the oceans are clearly the result of an unimaginably catastrophic event, that is absolutely consistent in severity and extent with the Global flood of Noah as clearly and succinctly described in Gods Holy Word, The Bible, in all 63 translations listed earlier under this topic.

The evidence of a Global flood is there for all to see, for those with eyes that see.

In a nutshell, the belief in deep time, and evolution means there was DEATH before Adam.
Yet the Bible is absolutely CLEAR that Death entered the world through Adams sin.
As a result, the belief in the millions and indeed billions of years undercuts the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore it is obviously incorrect. The millions and billions of years are a false teaching that are and will mislead many.
He is Lord of all, Praise Him from the rooftops! Rejoice in the knowledge that our Creator Loves us all.

God Bless,
jon

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

@Burrawang

The evidence of a Global flood is there for all to see, for those with eyes that see.

Remember that one piece of data that is inconsistent with the rest of the data may be evidence, but it is not good evidence that an alternate proposal is correct. If you find a hair with DNA from another person at the scene of a barber shop murder, it is not evidence that the person whose fingerprints are on the knife did not do it. If you find a quarter dated 1959 in the floorboard of a Tesla, it doesn’t mean it was manufactured then. You have to have evidence that makes sense and is consistent, and cannot be explained any other way.

Marine fossils on top of Mt. Everest are consistent with what we know about uplifts and tectonic movement, and consistent with measurements that are current and continuing, not a one time flood.
The layers of sediment are consistent with what we know about differential disposition of sediments over time and changing conditions, and inconsistent with a recent massive flood.
The fossils found in those sediments are consistent with the changes in life over deep time, and inconsistent with a major extinction event in the recent past.
Erosional patterns are consistent with deep time, not a recent one time event. The deep burial of sedimentary rock and the metamorphic changes followed by the erosion of those altered rocks to the surface is consistent with deep time and slow processes associated with the movement of the earth’s crust, and inconsistent with a one time catastrophic event.
You can look at a single stone and see evidence that deep time and slow processes formed the earth, and there are trillions of rocks. Even the stones bear witness. Whose eyes are then closed?

[Paraleptopecten (Timothy Campbell)]

@Burrawang

What is clear though, from the many comments you have made, is that you do not understand what is obvious and is clearly seen, that the vast and continuous sedimentary sheets across the entire planet, both on the continents and under the oceans are clearly the result of an unimaginably catastrophic event

Any deposit that has both fragile in-place paired bivalves larger than my hand and mud that takes a week to settle out of still water after being stirred up is utterly incompatible with violent burial. (Practically) still water is required to prevent that mud from being washed away. Examples of deposits which include both of those include: the Waccamaw Formation, Yorktown Formation, Duplin Formation, Bermont Formation, Caloosahatchee Formation, Tamiami Formation, various Italian and Spanish Pliocene layers, Red Crag, Paris Basin Eocene, Gulf Coast Eocene, and nearly every other unconsolidated shallow marine deposit in the world.

Many of the sublayers require decades to form, as there had to have been a substrate for the organism to live on, time for it to live and die, and time for other organisms to begin growing on it. As a specific example, the top of the upper Goose Creek Limestone in parts of Horry County, South Carolina is filled with lithophagiform endolithic bivalve burrows; many of these got eroded after the clams lived in them, given how shallow they are now. Then, sea level rose again to allow for intertidal oyster reefs and then shallow shelf species to inhabit the area, sea level rose further and more mid-shelf taxa took over, then there is a hard ground which got eroded down again (which took over 100 years to form, given how old some of the clams in it were), and then another rise in sea level, more oyster reefs, etc. Virtually none of that material was transported post-mortem.

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@Burrawang

you do not understand what is obvious and is clearly seen, that the vast and continuous sedimentary sheets across the entire planet, both on the continents and under the oceans are clearly the result of an unimaginably catastrophic event

Or it could have a full, detailed, and satisfactory explanation in geology. Which it does. All that sedimentary and igneous rock is accounted for.

Flood geology massively fails at explaining the presence of sedimentary formations.

@Burrawang

Making the rebuke, “you have been told” is not only disappointingly derogatory but also presupposes that you’re an absolute authority on the Earth’s geology and history

I do not believe anyone is replying to you from a vantage of self assumed authority. May I suggest that you download and learn from these online textbooks which are qualified.

Introduction to Earth Science
Physical Geology – 2nd Edition

Geologist and sediment expert David Montgomery published The Rocks Don’t Lie, and readable and reasonably friendly treatment of flood narratives from the standpoint of science.

You could also benefit from Geo Girl Rachel’s well put together web site.

But these recommendations are undoubtedly in vain, because your position is not grounded on evidence or anyone’s qualifications or credentials. It is not that anyone here presupposes absolute authority. It is you who dismisses the life work of generations of qualified geologists, industrial and academic.

There is a global and general scope to geology, but just about every location and formation on earth has been studied by several researchers for its particular local history. Each place with records incorporating processes such as ecological succession, accumulation and erosion, glaciation and local flooding (yes, local floods - we have them today and nobody calls those Noah’s flood - they happen in the past as well), tectonic movement, seismic events, land slides and successions of volcanic eruptions interspersed with interludes, and the shifting of estuaries and shelves with the slow undulations of sea level. Each locality with shared and unique characteristics which extend far into the past.

So when a sweeping assertion is made as being obvious and scientific, it is valid to dismiss it if it is demonstrably neither obvious nor scientific.

[jammycakes (James McKay)]

@Burrawang

Making the rebuke, “you have been told” is not only disappointingly derogatory but also presupposes that you’re an absolute authority on the Earth’s geology and history, which going from what I have read here, quite evidently is not the case.

No, he’s simply stating it as a fact. You have been told—repeatedly—that you’re not getting your facts straight. Not only that, but you’ve been told repeatedly why you’re not getting your facts straight.

Here’s the thing, Jon. When someone makes some specific points in refutation of your arguments, the correct response is to address those specific points with additional evidence and sound reasoning. Just repeating your original assertion without addressing the refutation will just make you sound like you’re not paying attention, and in such situations, “you have been told” is a perfectly legitimate response if not the only legitimate response. To fob it off as “disappointingly derogatory” will only make you sound whiny and childish and make it even harder for anyone to take you seriously.

[Fred_W]

Hi Jon, Thank you for all the scripture. I agree that being a Christian means following Jesus but I doubt that it requires understanding all of scripture according to a literal interpretation. Jesus knew His audience and how they understood the law and the prophets, so He taught according to that knowledge. It is certainly necessary to accept the prophecies about Jesus as He portrays them but the laws that are essential to following Jesus were radically condensed by Him. The Pharisees, in particular, had taken the literal interpretation of the law to extremes that isolated them from anyone else. As you referenced, Jesus said that the entire law could be expressed with the two requirements of love for God and love for others. Jesus is God and He clearly said that if a person loves Him, they will keep His commandments. His commandments were summed up with the requirement to love others as you love yourself. There is nothing in Jesus’s teaching that says following Him means having a literal understanding of scripture in translation. That belief is no less of a distortion of scripture than anything I propose with an epistemic translation. If your aptitude for God requires the belief that he conducts supernatural actions in the natural world, there is an understanding of scripture to accommodate that. I think that a primary meaning of the creation story in Genesis is that spoken words have ‘supernatural’ power to initiate action. I noticed the response to my use of the word ‘evolve’ to describe the development of life on earth. Clearly, words have power. I pray that you resist the path of the Pharisees in taking an extreme and rigid approach to following Jesus that goes beyond the essentials of love for God and others.

With the love of Christ,
Fred

[jammycakes (James McKay)]

@Fred_W

Hi Jon, Thank you for all the scripture. I agree that being a Christian means following Jesus but I doubt that it requires understanding all of scripture according to a literal interpretation. Jesus knew His audience and how they understood the law and the prophets, so He taught according to that knowledge.

Actually, when you read passages such as Matthew 23, you see that Jesus took a very dim, in fact scathing, view of a strict literal approach to Scripture. In fact several of His miracles flew in the face of Biblical literalism, what with healing on the Sabbath and all that. It’s also clear that Paul took a similar view by telling us that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6). And don’t get me started on Galatians.

Why? Because strict Biblical literalism ties up heavy loads on people’s shoulders without lifting a finger to help them. The whole point of the Gospel message is to bring freedom and liberty. Its whole purpose is to free people from condemnation. Strict literalism turns it into a set of legalistic, soul-crushing rules and restrictions. Young earthism just continues in that tradition by demanding, like the Party from George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty Four, that we reject the evidence of our eyes and ears as its final, most essential command, and heaping condemnation and accusations on us if we don’t.

I sometimes think that if Jesus were to go to the Ark Encounter, He would start laying hands on the sick and healing them left, right and centre – while wearing a T-shirt like this one.

[Burrawang]

Hi Fred,
thank you for your reply and your thoughts that for the most part I absolutely agree with and would thoroughly endorse.
The primary difference between the two worldviews as I see it is the matter of death.

If death and an unimaginable amount of suffering were the “clumsy” method that our dear Lord and Saviour used to create the diversity of life on Earth and us, via the massively advertised, publicized and taught process of evolution, WHY didn’t He just create ‘ex nihilo’ as He so clearly did when He was incarnate about 2,000 years ago? When Jesus spoke to the disciples and to the masses at that time He sometimes used parables to get the message of what He wanted them to understand, and the parables were clearly parables, I think I understood the parables as parables from about the age of ten years old.
But when Jesus spoke of historical events, it is just as clear, (to me at least) that He believed those historical events were real, and truthfully took place. This is absolutely clear when He teaches us about Adam and also about Noah and the flood.
Thus, I just can’t accept that ‘deep time’ and ‘evolution’ are anything more than man-made constructs.
When I was much younger and had been thoroughly indoctrinated into the ‘deep time’ and evolution paradigm, I actually believed that is how God created. In essence though I didn’t know the term then, I was a Theistic evolutionist, and I cringed when I heard some Christians say that the Earth was only six thousand years old. I used to think, why do they have to say that, they will turn people away from finding the Lord Jesus and salvation. I prayed and asked the Lord to give me wisdom.
Some years later two old friends (both in the Salvation Army) that I hadn’t seen for many, many years dropped in to visit and just before they left they gave me three copies of the early ‘Creation Magazine’.
I read the magazines from cover to cover, and could see that the authors of the articles were honest dedicated Christians, but I still cringed at the parts that said six thousand years. That just seemed a bridge too far.
I started to research the creation account and at some point in the 1980’s I subscribed to Creation Magazine and the Technical Journal.
At some point after that, I remember understanding the truth, it was a eureka moment for me, everything fell into place and it immediately became clear to me that the imagined eons of ‘deep time’ were the lie that has deceived the masses. It is as though the Lord took blinkers off my eyes, I understood the truth that the Bible CAN be trusted to mean precisely what is written.
Yes the Bible was written for people about four thousand years ago, but it was also written for all of humanity after that point in time. The Bible is God breathed, it is profound truth that transcends the ages and through the Holy Spirit is understandable in very deep ways.
The creation was a supernatural event as was the flood. That is simply a fact.
But I don’t take an ‘extreme and rigid approach’ to the Bible, I take God at His Word. Nothing more and nothing less.

I pray that He leads you to know the truth about creation and when it happened and to understand that the flood covered the Earth to a depth of fifteen cubits over the tallest mountains. The rocks are crying out that the great flood of Noah was indeed a global catastrophe. Haven’t you ever wondered why there are sedimentary formations on continental scales such as sandstone going down miles in perfect layers without bioturbation or erosion or soil horizons. We do not see the catastrophic events that formed those strata anywhere on Earth today! So I really struggle now to understand why so many Theistic evolutionists truly can’t see it. But then I remember that once I was exactly the same. I was totally blind to what is now so absolutely clear and obvious. I really don’t know how I could have been so blind, but I was. So I understand that the deep time and the evolution story seem to make sense. But please, please believe me, there is a better way to understand the creation and the flood.

May God Bless You and give you wisdom,
Your Brother in Christ our Lord,
jon

[St.Roymond]

@Burrawang

Making the rebuke, “you have been told” is not only disappointingly derogatory but also presupposes that you’re an absolute authority on the Earth’s geology and history

It’s not derogatory, it’s objective: it is a fact that you have been told repeatedly that your assertions about geological sediments and a global flood are wrong. And it has nothing to do with me in particular; several of us have corrected you on this.

@Burrawang

you do not understand what is obvious and is clearly seen, that the vast and continuous sedimentary sheets across the entire planet, both on the continents and under the oceans are clearly the result of an unimaginably catastrophic event

A global flood would not produce what we see. We know this because we have seen the results of huge floods, and they never leave nice orderly layers. This has been explained to you by several people.

@Burrawang

the Global flood of Noah as clearly and succinctly described in Gods Holy Word

No global flood is described in Genesis – the Hebrew does not say that.

@Burrawang

In a nutshell, the belief in deep time

Comes from the Hebrew text of Genesis, according to Hebrew scholars back before Galileo and his telescope.

@Burrawang

and evolution

I don’t particularly care about evolution. You can’t seem to get it out of your head, which keeps you from being able to address the text clearly.

@Burrawang

Yet the Bible is absolutely CLEAR that Death entered the world through Adams sin

Human death came through Adam’s sin – the text doesn’t say any other death did.

@Burrawang

As a result, the belief in the millions and indeed billions of years undercuts the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, they don’t – that’s your imagination adding things to the text. How much time came before has no relevance to the Gospel at all, and to say it does shows a failure to understand the Gospel.

You seem to think that you don’t need to actually study science, or the scriptures, but you jump right in and treat the Bible as teaching science, making a mess of both science and scripture.

@Burrawang

The millions and billions of years are a false teaching that are and will mislead many.

What misleads many, as I observed in my university days, was YEC because it makes the scriptures sound foolish and thus turns people from the Gospel – both non-Christians and Christians. I never once saw anyone turn from the Gospel because they learned that the universe is billions of years old; I saw hundreds turn from the Gospel because YEC preachers do like you and act as though if Genesis isn’t 100% scientifically and historically accurate then the entire Bible has to be tossed out.

[St.Roymond]

@jpm

The deep burial of sedimentary rock and the metamorphic changes

It’s worth noting that metamorphic rocks of he same parent material differ in their present condition due to the amount of heat and pressure they underwent, i.e. how deeply they got buried.

@jpm

You can look at a single stone and see evidence that deep time and slow processes formed the earth

Well, depending on the rock! None of the quite abundant UBOB (our abbreviation for “Ugly Black Oregon Basalt” that is found everywhere in the state) tells much about deep time all by itself, though it can tell whether it was a surface eruption or beneath sediments or just underwater, and then how long it took to cool.

@jpm

Even the stones bear witness.

Yes, they do, and one thing they witness to is that when Yahweh is called “the Ancient of Days” it isn’t talking about a piddly millennium or two.

[karma (reko tomo)]

@Burrawang

With regard to Adams rib, that is quite straightforward, and is explained well in the article at

Thanks for the article, Jon.
I’ve read it, but I’m sorry, to me, that article talks “in circle”.

First the article say that:
Adam, with his lack one rib condition, doesn’t mean that Cain was born with also lack one rib.

But then the article say another thing:
Adam’s rib grow back. Then of course Cain was born with the same amount of ribs just like Adam.

To me, the article talks “in circle”.
First the article say that Adam with N-1 ribs have Cain born with N ribs. But next, the article say that Adam have his rib grow back to N ribs, that’s why Cain was born with N ribs too.

So the conclusion of that article:
After Cain count his rib bones = N ribs, he ask Adam how many ribs Adam currently has, and Adam answer: Cain, I now have N ribs and N-1 ribs.

Anyway…, I’m not talking specifically about Adam’s rib. But about:
one say “it’s clear that means…” —VS-- the other one say “it’s NOT clear that means…”.

@Burrawang

when the Theistic evolutionists are saying one thing

As in my OP, I don’t involve evolution, Jon. But…

@Burrawang

Bible believing Christians who see Genesis as historical narrative

But… from the quote above, it already shows that there is someone else who see Genesis 1 as other than historical narrative even before evolution theory exist.

I don’t want to put names here because I assumed that you know those names who see Genesis 1 NOT as historical narrative even before evolution theory exist.

Thank you.

[St.Roymond]

@Paraleptopecten

mud that takes a week to settle out of still water after being stirred up is utterly incompatible with violent burial.

This reminded me of something we observed in a sedimentary formation in central Oregon: a sandstone layer underneath a mudstone layer had small swirls of both at the contact, indicating just enough water movement to disturb fine mud material and gently mix it with the underlying sand. The true beauty of this was that the very same swirls can be seen in river deposits in coastal estuaries in the present (if you know where to look and are lucky enough to have found a place where the conditions were right).

[karma (reko tomo)]

@St.Roymond

All this indicates that the sandstone layers were laid down over long periods of time when that location was getting river deposits

As I still put myself as YEC, I’ve been thinking “what if God created the whole universe (including earth) in already old age?”. So, just like YEC pov that Adam+Eve exist as an adult, then (in my YEC pov) I thought “so then it’s possible the universe was created in already old age”.

So I ask ChatGpt: “Any theory from YEC that universe was created as already in old age?”.
ChatGpt mentioned : Dr. Russell Humphreys

But I can’t find in the internet his writing which say explicitly that the universe was created in already old age. Anyway, I wonder, what is the evolutionist respond if YEC say that ?

Thanks St.Roymond.

[Burrawang]

Hi Reko, thank you for your thoughts and questions.

I am certainly not an authority by any stretch of the imagination, but I do understand that it was necessary for God to create Eve from Adam so that man and woman from the very beginning are related.

A very good article on this straightforward fact from the Bible is at:

Eve adams rib

I hope this helps,
God Bless,
jon

[St.Roymond]

@rsewell

Geologist and sediment expert David Montgomery published The Rocks Don’t Lie

Good recommendation!

@rsewell

You could also benefit from Geo Girl Rachel’s well put together web site

I’ll have to check that out.

@rsewell

your position is not grounded on evidence or anyone’s qualifications or credentials. It is not that anyone here presupposes absolute authority. It is you who dismisses the life work of generations of qualified geologists, industrial and academic.

It’s not based on actual study of the scriptures, either; it is ego-driven in that it seeks ‘results’ that reinforce the rejection of any need to truly study and learn.

[St.Roymond]

@Fred_W

If your aptitude for God requires the belief that he conducts supernatural actions in the natural world

It’s plain from scripture that supernatural actions in the natural world aren’t just whimsical or to back up some other intervention, they’re to give a message – they are in fact “word” in the Hebrew sense. So a multitude of miraculous suspensions of natural law just to fix the bad results of some other intervention is out of character for Yahweh becuase there’s no actual message. And the message of such miracles tends to be about just Who our God is; that’s blatantly obvious in the Exodus and also in the miracles of Jesus.

@jammycakes

Strict literalism turns it into a set of legalistic, soul-crushing rules and restrictions. Young earthism just continues in that tradition by demanding, like the Party from George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty Four, that we reject the evidence of our eyes and ears as its final, most essential command, and heaping condemnation and accusations on us if we don’t.

Put “shallow” in front of “legalistic”.

@Burrawang

But I don’t take an ‘extreme and rigid approach’ to the Bible

But you do. You refuse to even try to understand the scriptures as the ancient literature they are, which makes you blind to the awesome lessons being taught, preferring to act as though it was all like a friend’s grandfather’s journal of events he lived through written in English.

You were right before: YEC drives people from Christ. Where I attended university it drove more Christians to abandon their faith than all other things combined. I can’t recall any Christian I knew who was non-YEC who ever lost their faith, but of YEC types they did by the hundreds.
Jesus said we can know them by their fruit. Well, the fruit of YEC is a plague of spiritual death on the one hand and pride on the other.

[St.Roymond]

@karma

from the quote above, it already shows that there is someone else who see Genesis 1 as other than historical narrative even before evolution theory exist.

Absolutely. The first Creation account is a masterpiece crafted to use two ancient literary types at once while using the Egyptian creation story as its framework, thus giving three major lessons – and none of that has anything to do with evolution.

I’ll also point out once again that the first appearance of the Big Bang in human writing was back before Copernicus or Galileo when some Hebrew scholars examined the Hebrew text carefully and concluded that the universe started out smaller than a grain of mustard and grew inconceivably fast to spread out to what we recognize today!

@karma

that the universe was created in already old age. Anyway, I wonder, what is the evolutionist respond if YEC say that ?

I don’t know what an ‘evolutionist’ would respond, but as someone who almost finished a geology degree I say that “the universe was created in already old age” makes God a liar because He made a universe that looks incredibly old but isn’t – and that’s not the God of the scriptures, it’s more like Loki the Trickster, the capricious Norse god.

[karma (reko tomo)]

@St.Roymond

I don’t know what an ‘evolutionist’ would respond

Thanks for the answer, St.Roymond.

@St.Roymond

it’s more like Loki the Trickster, the capricious Norse god.

Oh… I thought Loki, the adopted brother of Thor in Marvel’s movie