Is there a standpoint from which the creation days in Genesis 1 are described as 24 hours per day?

The amount of geological ignorance behind that statement is mind-boggling.

I have read a couple of dozen claims from YECists about what things at Mount St. Helens supposedly prove, and not a one would have passed basic college introductory science – none. It is both saddening and sickening to hear Christians making such foolish claims that cause the world to laugh at God.

She has also commented on what the YEC folks have said about her work – and she was politer than I would be able to be.

You mean the uniformitarian philosophy that comes from believing that Yahweh is trustworthy and dependable and does not change the rules in the middle of the game?

That’s exactly what we should conclude about Creation from reading the old covenant scriptures: Yahweh doesn’t change the rules He established and is not capricious about His doings.

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Young earthists don’t just reject uniformitarianism; they take their rejection of uniformitarianism to levels so extreme as to be deep into the realms of very soft science fiction if not outright fantasy. Accelerated nuclear decay is just one example.

There are some things that it is perfectly reasonable to assume were the same in the distant unobservable past as they are today. There are some things that it is completely unreasonable to suggest could have been different in the distant unobservable past from what they are today. For example, it is not reasonable to suggest that the Earth was originally flat and covered by a solid dome, only to assume the spherical shape that it has today during the time of Noah’s Flood. Even young earthists will admit that much.

In the same way, it is not reasonable to assume that the basic laws of mathematics and measurement could have been different in the past. Furthermore, some hypotheses of non-uniformity make testable predictions. For example, if the fundamental constants of physics (the speed of light, the fine structure constant, the strength of the electromagnetic force, the mass ratios of the elementary particles and so on) had ever been different in the past, then life as we know it would not have been possible. This is because just about everything else in nature depends on these fundamental constants, and so to change them would have all sorts of knock on effects that would be extremely far reaching.

This is why nuclear decay rates could not have been different in the past from what they are today. It is also why zircon crystals could not have been created containing lead in the quantities that we see today either. These things require changes to the most fundamental constants of nature such as these in order to happen.

The problem, of course, is that the Mount St Helens claims by young earthists violate two of the most fundamental rules of accurate and honest measurement.

  1. Unreliability must be quantified.
  2. Unreliability is specific to the context in which the measurements are taken.

The Mount St Helens study took freshly erupted samples and had them dated using an obsolete form of uranium-lead potassium-argon dating by a laboratory that specifically said on its website that it didn’t have the high precision equipment needed to date samples less than 2 million years old. This being the case, it was no surprise to anyone that the results came back ranging up to about 2.8 million years. However, young earthists repeatedly tout these examples as “evidence” that more modern techniques with better precision, on samples a hundred times older, must also be so out of whack that they could easily have been formed just yesterday for all we know.

This is like taking an old, rusty set of mechanical bathroom scales and seeing that it reads a couple of kilograms when you’re not standing on it, then when you stand on a new set of electronic bathroom scales and see a reading of 90 kilograms, concluding that you could quite plausibly weigh nothing. It simply doesn’t follow.

In a nutshell: the soft tissue findings all have perfectly reasonable and credible explanations that are fully consistent with the known laws of physics and chemistry, and hand-waving them away as “rescuing devices” won’t change that fact. Nothing has been found that doesn’t.

Young earth rescuing devices, on the other hand, require the invention of new laws of fantasy physics that, by their own admission, would have vaporised the Earth’s crust many times over if they had any basis in reality.

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Reminds me on the book :the Manifold Beauty of Genesis One by Davidson and Turner

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Welcome to the Biologos Forum. I think it would help you to realize that your question has no definitive answer. The Creationist view of Genesis is to make a purely imaginary story into a historical reality. Trying to establish the actual start of the first day by connecting our knowledge of the universe to a literal meaning of Genesis is like figuring out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. What your imagination tells you is as good as anything someone else might tell you. There is no objective ‘reality’ to it. When I say that the creation account in Genesis is a purely imaginary story, I am referring to a strict literal understanding that does not apply any knowledge to it that we obtain from current observation of the universe. The Creationist view includes the complete remaking of the universe as a result of Noah’s Flood. What we experience of the universe now is not what it was like before the Flood. You don’t need to agree with that understanding, but it is essential to realize it if you want to comprehend a Creationist view.

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Hi Ron,
thank you for your comment and stating what you believe to be true.

Uniformitarianism, also known as the Doctrine of Uniformity or the Uniformitarian Principle, is the assumption that the same natural laws and processes that operate in our present-day scientific observations have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe.”

And there it is in your quote, the word assumption.

In a similar vein, my understanding of uniformitarian philosophy, for what its worth, is that it originated from James Hutton who said, “The result therefore of our present inquiry is, that we find no vestige of a beginning - no prospect of an end.” That belief was championed by Charles Lyell who strenuously argued at the Royal Society, London in the mid nineteenth century that the formation of Earth’s crust took place through countless small changes occurring over vast periods of time, all according to known natural laws. His “uniformitarian” proposal was that the forces molding the planet today have operated continuously throughout its history. Of course I strenuously disagree with the whole uniformitarian concept and see it as a belief system that has deceived many since it was first pushed on academia about one and a half centuries ago.

Since the mid nineteenth century, of course the definition has been expanded to include more than just geology, but at it’s core, whether you agree or disagree, it is an assumption and the basic thrust remains the same.

But you claim that the two statements of mine that you quoted contradict each other, which I refute as clearly nonsense, and yet another baseless claim.

I do not consider uniformitarian philosophy to be at all valid because uniformitarian philosophy makes absolutely no allowance for the catastrophic events that took place such as the global flood as reliably and faithfully recorded in the Bible.
The magnitude of the flood completely reshaped the surface of the planet, and is clearly evidenced by the geology that screams out of vast continental scale catastrophism.

Repeatable, empirical science that doesn’t rely on assumptions about what happened in the distant past as practiced in the lab by millions of honest scientists who have no other agenda except to test samples and hypotheses and draw conclusions from their results is absolutely valid and calls the alleged ages of dinosaur bone and soft tissue into question!

The findings from that same empirical science in chemistry and physics doesn’t permit the types of organic matter found in the dinosaur bones to exist for 65 to 300 million years, unless (wittingly or unwittingly), the scientist/s doing the research already have a ‘deep time’ worldview that influences how they see the world. Having that worldview is not at all surprising as it is constantly rammed into everyone in western cultures, on the media, in the educational institutions and faithfully not questioning it can be the difference between getting a job position or a research grant, such is the power play these days.

What do you think of the following statements from leading secular scientists:

Dr Marcelo Gleiser, an agnostic theoretical physicist and cosmologist who won the 2019 Templeton Prize, admits, “When you hear very famous scientists making pronouncements like … cosmology has explained the origin of the universe and the whole, and we don’t need God anymore. That’s complete nonsense,” he added. “Because we have not explained the origin of the universe at all.”
Reference: Couronne, I., Physicist Marcelo Gleiser: ‘Science does not kill God’, news.yahoo.com, 19 March 2019.
And they never will for it was a miracle of God (Genesis 1:1)

We are all one race, one family

The front page of the April 2018 National Geographic showed a blue-eyed, fair-skinned, blonde-haired girl standing alongside her brown-eyed, medium-brown skinned, dark-haired sister, with the caption, “Black and white: These twin sisters make us rethink everything we know about race”. Editor Susan Goldberg admitted that, “some of the magazine’s archive material left her ‘speechless’, including a 1916 photo of Australian Aborigines with the caption ‘South Australian Blackfellows: These savages rank lowest in intelligence of all human beings’.”
Goldberg, S., For decades, our coverage was racist. To rise above our past, we must acknowledge it, nationalgeographic.com, April 2018

As the late Stephen Jay Gould once wrote, “Biological arguments for racism … increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.” The NG magazine cover and caption confirms that we are indeed all “one” race (Acts 17:26)
Gould, S.J., Ontogeny and Phylogeny, Belknap-Harvard Press, pp. 127–128, 1977.

A fossil ichthyosaur from Germany’s famous Holzmaden quarry has been found with “fossilised blubber” and skin remains. Called Stenopterygius, this extinct marine reptile is said to be 180 million years old. Dr Johan Lindgren of Lund University in Sweden says, “the still-flexible skin meant the specimen must have been fossilised so fast that organic molecules were trapped inside the mineral component of the fossil."
indgren, J. et al, Soft-tissue evidence for homeothermy and crypsis in a Jurassic ichthyosaur, Nature 564:359–365, 5 December 2018.

Recent fossil finds by Chinese scientists revealed such an astonishing level of preservation that slow-n-gradual burial is not an option. Found along the Danshui river in China’s Hubei province, thousands of fossilised jellyfish, sponges, anemones, worms, arthropods and algae are said to have been “entombed in an ancient underwater mudslide.” Dr Martin Smith, a palaeontologist at Durham University excitedly said, “[The] preservational quality is mindblowing … If you sent a time traveller back to the Cambrian period armed with a camera and an x-ray machine, the images they’d come back with would be nothing compared to these fossils, which preserve detail finer than a human hair.”
Sample, I., ‘Mindblowing’ haul of fossils over 500m years old unearthed in China, The Guardian, 21 March 2019.

In their paper the scientists make clear that the exquisite preservation of the fossils is due to a sudden mud flow that swept the animals into cold, deep water, thus slowing decay.
Fu, D. et al, The Qingjiang biota—A Burgess Shale–type fossil Lagerstätte from the early Cambrian of South China, Science 363(6433):1338–1342, 22 March 2019.

Fossil evidence that is wonderfully compatible with the Noahic Flood was reported in the prestigious journal Science.
Wang, X. et al, Egg accumulation with 3D embryos provides insight into the life history of a pterosaur, Science 358(6367):1197–1201, 1 December 2017
Over 215 eggs (maybe up to 300) were found in a sandstone block, assigned to a species of pterosaur called Hamipterus tianshanensis. Some had embryonic remains, but what really caught popular attention was that the “pterosaur eggs had soft parchment-like shells”.
Authors Xiaolin Wang (Institute of Vertebrate Palaeontology and Paleoanthropology in Beijing) and Alexander Kellner (National Museum of Brazil in Rio de Janeiro) write, “This sedimentological data, associated with the exceptional quantity of eggs and bones, indicate that events of high energy such as storms have passed over a nesting site, causing the eggs to be moved inside the lake where they floated for a short period of time, becoming concentrated and eventually buried along with disarticulated skeletons.”
That is quite imaginative, but what is certain is the conclusion that a high energy watery event is needed to explain such preservation.
Briggs, H., Fossilised eggs shed light on reign of pterosaurs, Home - BBC News, 30 November 2017.

In recent years, Dr Mary Schweitzer, famous for publications of genuine unfossilised soft tissue in dinosaur bones, has been experimenting to see whether iron-rich fluids could explain how their tissues, proteins and DNA could have lasted for millions of years. But Prof Matthew Collins, a world authority on biogeochemistry and biomolecular archaeology at University of York (UK), is very sceptical that iron from haemoglobin could have done the magic required: “I have yet to hear a plausible explanation for how soft tissues can be preserved for this long … for me they’re defying basic chemistry and physics. … Iron may slow down the decay process but it’s not clear how it could be arrested altogether.”
Prof Matthew Collins quoted in: Morton, M.C., Cretaceous collagen: Can molecular paleontology glean soft tissue from dinosaurs? Earth, 16 October 2017; earthmagazine.org.

And finally, back to Mary Schweitzer, since the discoveries she made were interpreted within the uniformitarian dogma, that Theistic evolutionists believe, she was extremely sceptical at first, e.g. the pioneer Dr Mary Schweitzer:

“When you think about it, the laws of chemistry and biology and everything else that we know say that it should be gone, it should be degraded completely.”
Schweitzer, M., Nova Science Now, May 2009, cross.tv - Dinosaur Soft Tissue Troubles Evolutionists.

I am well aware that Mary Schweitzer has tried to explain the results away, but most unconvincing from the viewpoint of known empirical chemistry. The presence of detectable proteins such as collagen, haemoglobin, osteocalcin, actin, and tubulin that are complex molecules that continually tend to break down to simpler ones.

Thus, it is obvious to anyone who has eyes to see and a mind to reason that the utterly preserved cells of dinosaur soft tissue, that are most definitely NOT remnants, that they must be relatively recent in age or they simply would not exist. The belief that scores of different dinosaur soft tissue from all over the Earth are 65 to 300 million years old merely serves to show the high degree of indoctrination that many have assimilated in there absolute obedience to the ruling paradigm that controls academia and the media in the word today.
The very fact that people actually believe that examples of exquisitely preserved dinosaur soft tissue CELLS in some cases are hundreds of millions of years of years old demonstrates an inability to think for themselves, and instead dogmatically hold to the powerful ruling paradigm! This clear fact is multiplied further when we consider precisely where many of the dinosaur bone and soft tissue were found in environments where climatic conditions are most unfavourable for preservation.

Around four and a half thousand years is a very long time, however, the incessant indoctrination of deep time in academia and the media, has believers in evolution think of it as a mere blink of the eye, such is their absolute adherence to interpreting everything within a uniformitarian ‘deep time’ paradigm framework.

God Bless,
jon

There’s something you need to understand about the word “assumption”, Jon.

It is not a get-out-of-jail-free card to let you reject anything and everything about science that you don’t like.

In order to challenge a scientific theory by challenging its assumptions, there are three things that you must do.

  1. State exactly what the assumptions are, giving precise technical details.
  2. Make sure that the theory really does make the assumptions that you are claiming that it makes, and that scientists haven’t come up with new methods that manage to test or work around those assumptions.
  3. Provide a credible explanation for how those assumptions could have been violated in a way that is consistent with both your alternative explanation and the raw evidence, right down to the precise measurements and the correlations between them.

And the word you are using incorrectly here, Jon, is philosophy.

This is a point that I’ve made before on these forums. Before you can address the philosophy of science, you must first make sure you are getting your facts straight about the mechanics of science.

The mechanics of science are the basic rules and principles by which science operates, that do not depend on anybody’s worldviews, and that are the same for everyone, whether they are a Christian or an atheist or a tractor worshipper from Tauri-Hessia.

It is the mechanics of science, not the philosophy of science, that tells us that the world we live in is 4.5 billion years old and not six thousand.

OK Jon, let’s assume you have a point here and that the cells of dinosaur soft tissue isn’t entirely the ultimately stable final breakdown products. If we didn’t have radiometric dating and thousands of other different lines of evidence that tightly constrain the fossils’ ages to >65 million years, then you might be able to make a case for arguing them down as low as about one or two million years, but no younger.

Why? Because, as I said, at six thousand years, we would expect to find whole carcasses with sufficient intact DNA to sequence the entire T-Rex genome.

I’ve already pointed out to you what soft tissue looks like after a few thousand years. Twice. The stuff we find in dinosaur bones, fully decayed or not, doesn’t come anywhere close.

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But don’t you see, those methods were designed within the uniformitarian ‘deep time’ paradigm framework, thus it should be obvious and to be expected they produce results consistent with the paradigm within which they were drafted.

Why?

God Bless,
jon

No they weren’t. They were designed to test the “uniformitarian ‘deep time’ paradigm framework.”

The claim that radiometric dating only gives deep time results because it assumes deep time results is total nonsense told by people who flat-out lie about how radiometric dating actually works, and mindlessly regurgitated by people who don’t know what a mass spectrometer is.

Because we already have carcasses of other things that are known to be that old. I included pictures of two examples – Ötzi the Iceman and Tollund Man. There are dozens and dozens of others that I could cite.

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Hi Fred, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I have zero knowledge of, ‘the complete remaking of the universe as a result of Noah’s Flood.’

I am unable to say either way on that one, but perhaps you could explain why you think that creationists believe that, and/or you believe that.

Thanks,
God Bless,
jon

In other words, empirical science.

Clear thinking would suggest that such preservation rules out a high energy flood which destroys and disrupts everything in its path.

She did not try to explain anything away. Mary Schweitzer researched to understand the data.

Scientists have no need or interest in proving the Earth is ancient - that has been comprehended for a couple of hundred years. They are interested in deepening the understanding of the biological and geological details of what happened over that time. It is not just that the present illuminates the past, but the past illuminates the present. I’m always struck by how bored YEC are with actual science. It is all about apologetics and explaining away the data, and beyond that there is little interest. Improved techniques, more sensitive instrumentation, and discovery, just make the YEC narrative harder to sustain.

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Why??? You cannot answer this yourself?

Almost any recent remains contain DNA and/or protein which is extractible and sequencible. Contrary to YEC, at six thousand years, you generally do not find much permineralization.

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I think he’s just failed FizzBuzz. Again.

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Science has long gone beyond uniformitarianism as a strict framework. Earth history has been punctuated with catastrophes such as the Chicxulub impact and other extinction events, just not a global flood.

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In relation to ordinary objective empirical science, I agree with that as far as I know, but I may be wrong!
As we were not there, it is not possible to be absolutely dogmatic about it, either way.

Of course as the Bible clearly tells us God imposed the Global Flood that wiped all that had the breath of life in their nostrils, we just don’t know if there were on occasions, miracles where God performed processes were outside those laws. I don’t think it is possible to be dogmatic either way.

All that clear thinking concludes in my mind is that the creatures must have been extremely rapidly entombed in deep sediment that prevented oxygen and bacteria and of course marine scavengers from destroying the creatures.

As I have stated many times previously, this is a battle of worldviews.
I reject the claims you make about Bible believing Christians who accept the creation and flood accounts as they are so clearly written by God.

I believe that God in His foreknowledge inspired the authors to write down the words in a manner that is clearly comprehensible to people of any time throughout history.

Please understand that our Gracious, Loving God spoke the vast, vast universe into existence; He is incomprehensibly mighty and Lord over ALL, regardless of when people lived, thus, I do not think that God is incapable of such a small thing as making the Bible when translated, understandable for all of mankind throughout the ages. The 63 translations I listed earlier in this forum attest to that fact.

God Bless,
jon

As I have stated many times previously, this is nothing of the sort.

We can start discussing worldviews once we’re on the same page about the practical details. You cannot meaningfully discuss the philosophy of science until you’re getting your facts straight about the mechanics of science.

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I certainly don’t know why not.

**That is precisely the point! **
We are clearly not on the same page, and that is because we have radically different worldviews.

It really is that simple!

God Bless,
jon

Because, as I said, the mechanics of science do not depend on your worldview.

How mathematics works does not depend on your worldview.
How measurement works does not depend on your worldview.
What scientists actually do in the laboratory does not depend on your worldview.
How scientists actually collect and process samples does not depend on your worldview.
What they actually do when they do radiometric dating does not depend on your worldview.
What error bars mean does not depend on your worldview.

The issue at stake here, Jon, is that you must make sure your facts are straight. The only worldview which disagrees with that is called “lying.”

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My worldview is not that the Earth is ancient.

My worldview is that all truth is God’s truth, and that God created an orderly world so that we can learn about nature from rigorous observation.

That the Earth is ancient is a necessary consequence of that worldview, not the basis of the worldview.

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Totally agree with you up to here and no Christian that I know of who works in science and believes the Biblical account of creation and the flood would disagree either to my knowledge.

But a researchers Worldview absolutely DOES come into play when the data from the analysis is interpreted! Which is precisely why worldviews are entirely relevant and do matter enormously.

Very accurate instruments DO NOT PROVIDE AGES OF SAMPLES!
The ages are interpreted within the worldview of the researcher doing the analysis of the sample.
To say otherwise, betrays a lack of understanding about how dating procedures operate!

As I have stated previously, we all have the same data, the instruments we use are good instruments and getting more precise all the time, so the results that we obtain from testing samples is very accurate and have a high degree of precision. But, and it is an enormous BUT, the conclusions that are, derived, or extrapolated or just plain interpreted from the data is exactly where the researchers worldview is front and centre. To say otherwise as you do, again, betrays a grave misunderstanding of how science operates.

Thus it would appear, regrettably, and sadly, that you and many others on this website, have traveled a considerable distance down the uniformitarian, evolution, ‘deep time’ rabbit hole of this fallen world, that unfortunately has you believe the premise you are operating under, i.e., that the uniformitarian, evolution, ‘deep time’ worldview framework is objective science fact. It is most assuredly not!

God Bless,
jon

No Jon. YEC apologists in fact do not accept how measurement works. If they did, they would not be playing the farce of dating carbon dead materials and argon dating material from Mount St. Helens. That is nothing at all to do with interpretation. When YEC leaders parade results which violate the operating range of the measurement to deceive their audience, that is not differing interpretation of the same data, that is intentional misconduct.

Whether an instrument is measuring custody transfer between industrial facilities, or performing dating of age, there is always a level of confidence and a level of uncertainty. You must understand the error contributions of calibration, rangeability, span, sensitivity, hysteresis, bias, memory, offset, and installation and procedural considerations for any and every instrument. You cannot deflect that by crying worldview.

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