Is the Supernatural essential to Christianity

[1Cor15.54]

@RichardG

Life loses its purpose if all it becomes is a stepping stone to eternity.

I’ve never said that it’s just a stepping stone. It’s much more than that. But the fact that there is an e(vi)ternity that awaits us gives much more value to our choices. When I was a semi-atheist I didn’t have a purpose and everything was marred by the tought of death and meaninglessness. It’s not like I was depressed or anything but I really felt the purposelessness of it all.

[St.Roymond]

@RichardG

maybe you think that the weather is not fully automated?

It appears to be, but Jesus had some things to say about that.

@1Cor15.54

i believe that the interaction of the spiritual realm with this earthly realm is part of what Blaise Pascal said about there being enough light for those who want to see and enough darkness for those who don’t want to.

I’ve always loved that concept.

@EDC1

I would suggest miracles by definition are supernatural

Or everything is supernatural, and some things are just less natural than others.

@1Cor15.54

It’s hard to believe that a loving God would have created a natural world that, from the very beginning, was subjected to death, cannibalism, and predation.

Or do we just over-anthropomorphize?

@1Cor15.54

So what I’m asking is this: what if the natural world, with its “brutal” and “indifferent” laws, is actually the result of the angels’ sin?

Or what if it’s just a manifestation of the chaos Genesis and other passages tell us encompassed everything to being with but was never eradicated?
Or both – I could go with both. But setting the blame totally on angels awards them tremendous power given how many animals and even plants are by nature carnivores or scavengers or saprophytes.

[St.Roymond]

@RichardG

That is Paul speaking.

Sin has no intrinsic power.

I’ll go with the apostle.

@RichardG

That claim is just an excuse that amounts to
“It’s not my fault! I am a sinner!”

So? I had a friend in college who wasn’t even five feet tall. It wasn’t an “excuse” to be able to say, “I can’t reach that shelf!”, it was something he had to accept and live with.

@1Cor15.54

there is not one definitive view of the Gospel or the Atonement

However much modern American evangelicalism strives to make us think so.

[St.Roymond]

@1Cor15.54

This is why the devil is delighted when people think he doesn’t exist.

He also loves to shatter the idea that if Hell exists so must Heaven.

@RichardG

Fortunately in the west we have little contact with voodoo and the likes.

Then there’s Miami . . . .

[EDC1]

‘Or everything is supernatural, and some things are just less natural than others.’

that doesnt make sense to me. Take death. It is natural that when a human dies, their body remains dead. If a human is raised from the dead (let’s say theyve been dead for 3 days so not a resuscitation from near death), that to me is a clear supernatural event. A miracle. There is no ‘natural’ explanation.

[T_aquaticus (The Friendly Neighborhood Atheist)]

@Vinnie

I agree. Science is deeply entrenched in a materialistic culture and understanding. YECs are only half the problem. This scientific culture is the other half. If we really want to advocate “Science is good” — which it most definitely is—we need to address both extremes.

How do you think Christian scientists fit into this? Do they worship at two different altars?

Personally, I don’t think science gives us truth in the philosophical sense. Science is just a tool we use to figure out how the regularities of nature work, and it seems to work really well in that capacity. I see no issue with faith based beliefs that address questions science can’t answer for us. The only real conflict is when the supernatural is invoked to explain what science has already explained through large amounts of evidence.

[Vinnie]

@T_aquaticus

Science is just a tool we use to figure out how the regularities of nature work, and it seems to work really well in that capacity.

I remember reading a book by Michael Shermer on why people believe weird things (I had probably close to a half dozen of his books at one time) and from what I remember is that people focus on the hits and ignore the misses. That is how he explained the popularity of fortune tellers, horoscopes, etc. I think that is a bit of confirmation bias. It seems us humans are pattern-seekers who love connecting dots and constructing narratives. I don’t think scientists are immune to this. But science science is successful. Remarkably successful. I don’t find it odd that some of its practitioners end up with a little missionary exuberance that might go a little beyond what it can safely state. I also think since at least Newton, we have let occasional deism or a mechanistic image of God creep into our understanding of the world. Lots of this also stems from the demise of classical theology and philosophy in my view.

Sometimes I think the scientific way of thinking has become entrenched as the only real one in many parts of academia. It’s not just a tool, it the tool. The immaculate tool. When I leave that lofty ivory tower though, and go on social media and see how people argue in that realm, I realize most humans are actually quite stupid.

Vinnie

[T_aquaticus (The Friendly Neighborhood Atheist)]

@Vinnie

I remember reading a book by Michael Shermer on why people believe weird things (I had probably close to a half dozen of his books at one time) and from what I remember is that people focus on the hits and ignore the misses. That is how he explained the popularity of fortune tellers, horoscopes, etc. I think that is a bit of confirmation bias. It seems us humans are pattern-seekers who love connecting dots and constructing narratives. I don’t think scientists are immune to this.

Scientists are susceptible to any number of biases like confirmation bias and false associations. Good scientists will use any number of techniques to eliminate these biases as thoroughly as they can. Publishing your work and having it criticized by the scientific community is also a really helpful step.

@Vinnie

I don’t find it odd that some of its practitioners end up with a little missionary exuberance that might go a little beyond what it can safely state. I also think since at least Newton, we have let occasional deism or a mechanistic image of God creep into our understanding of the world. Lots of this also stems from the demise of classical theology and philosophy in my view.

I don’t find it odd either. Humans will do human things. We aren’t 100% logic driven Vulcans, after all.

@Vinnie

Sometimes I think the scientific way of thinking has become entrenched as the only real one in many parts of academia. It’s not just a tool, it the tool. The immaculate tool. When I leave that lofty ivory tower though, and go on social media and see how people argue in that realm, I realize most humans are actually quite stupid.

I don’t think it is as prevalent as you think. Scientists I have talked to here and elsewhere only run into this type of attitude on rare occasions. Atheist and theist scientists work side by side all of the time with no issues or philosophical conflicts. Of the extremes you speak of, I see those much more in the general population than I do in scientific circles. Admittedly I could be completely biased on this one, but that’s what I see.

[Vinnie]

@T_aquaticus

I don’t think it is as prevalent as you think. Scientists I have talked to here and elsewhere only run into this type of attitude on rare occasions. Atheist and theist scientists work side by side all of the time with no issues or philosophical conflicts. Of the extremes you speak of, I see those much more in the general population than I do in scientific circles. Admittedly I could be completely biased on this one, but that’s what I see.

I am not questioning their scientific work. I am suggesting its remarkable successes can lead to false conclusions in one’s overall worldview (which includes far more than science). That could be them or even a lot of college educated people immersed in an academic world at some time.

We agree science is an extremely useful tool and it can be practiced well by believers and non-believers alike.

@T_aquaticus

I don’t find it odd either. Humans will do human things. We aren’t 100% logic driven Vulcans, after all.

Apparently, they have deeper passions and emotions than us. They just learned how to control them. But yeah.

Vinnie