Yes and no. Is Frodo part of the ink and paper in a “Lord of the Rings” book? If you examine the ink there is no Frodo there… paper neither. The ink and paper are merely used to as a medium in which to tell a story about Frodo. But if I throw the book in an incinerator then does Frodo remain in the air or ashes? No.
I have seen no objective evidence that this is the case.
I believe the mind is a living organism in the medium of human language just as the body is a living organism in the medium of chemistry and DNA.
All the evidence tells us that there is nothing supernatural about the mind but completely dependent on bodily function.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that the resurrected body is a spiritual body. I think it natural to think the spiritual body will have a mind the same as we have in our physical body.
We can distinguish the body from the mind conceptually. But we do not know if they can be actually separated from each other. I wrote a science fiction series based on the idea that they could. But it might not be possible.
There are many interesting questions around this topic. I am not sure about the correct answers but assume that much of the so called ‘Christian’ teaching about our soul/spirit living within a carnal body originates from Greek philosophy, rather than the thinking of Jesus and the first apostles. In Greek philosophy, it was common to assume that a pure ‘soul’ or ‘spiritual spark’ lived within a bad flesh body and was released at the point of death (for example, Platonism and some gnostic belief systems were teaching this).
I believe in the old teaching that we are souls, rather than have souls. In this thinking, mind refers to certain features of the total me (soul). In this thinking, you cannot tear the mind out of the living entity, the soul.
Yet, I am a bit uncertain about the interpretation because I have read and listened too many near death and out of body experiences. In many cases, the ‘out of body’ person has watched what happens around the body that has ceased to operate (no breathing, no heart rate, flat EEG, etc). The descriptions have sometimes been so accurate and external that the body could not have known these things even if the body would have been awake. Maybe there is something happening that goes beyond the interpretations I currently support.
While demon possession is common in some asean countries such as Indonesia where I am from, it is not viewed as a reality in the western mind though there are such instances in the Bible. It is more a novelty idea presented in some horror movies etc and therefore it is harder to discuss how a demon might actually possesses and takes control of a person. It hijacks a person from within taking control of all the faculties of a person including its brain and have access to the memory of the brain that it controls. Then the person who exercise the exorcism might converse (as Jesus did with legions) with the evil spirit that possess that person.
If you mean objective evidence being a careful repeatable testing in a lab setting, then I don’t think we can ever give that kind of objective evidence. It is not possible thus far thru our advance in science and medical engineering to bring about a person to near death experience and to have “out of body” experience and to safely bring back that person back to life. Perhaps many in the medical field who are not from religious background have assumed there is nothing more to life than the life that we have. If a person died, then he is no more. Since a spirit / soul is not testable by any scientific experiment, it is assumed as non existent.
Cases such as these are fascinating since we have to base our argument in accordance to the data that we have seen and in these cases the stories of those who experiences these “out of body” events and their stories were validated by those around them. If we can accept these stories as true, then we can conclude that the mind actually exist even when the brain is no longer alive or functional.
Maybe a more accurate way to say it would be that the secular culture of the western countries and the scientific understanding within that culture do not think that demons are a credible explanation for strange phenomena.
One reason may be that the previous generations have mixed natural and demonic effects. As science has been able to show that the majority of the adverse effects can be explained with purely naturalistic explanations, also the potentially demonic effects have been classified in the same category - superstition among people with poor scientific knowledge. Those telling about demons are often treated as mislead, simple minded persons and therefore, it is often wise to handle these cases in silence.
Demonic possession as such is an interesting possibility to understand more about human mind, assuming that you believe that such a possession is a realistic possibility. My understanding is that demonic possession is a real possibility but everything that is attributed to evil spirits is not caused by demons. It may be that real demon possession is a very rare but increasing phenomenon in the post-Christian cultures.
Not exactly. In Greek philosophy there was only the mind or psyche, though the influence of this on Christianity contributed to a confusion of the mind with the spirit.
It was a teaching of Gnosticism and other religions believing in transmigration and reincarnation. I prefer sticking to the Bible and the findings of science. All the evidence is against this idea of life and personhood coming from a magical supernatural addition to the matter of the body. Our life and personhood is clearly a product of the properties, organization, and processes in our material composition. Thus I believe a spirit takes its form from the choices of a living organism – both the body and the mind. But this is outside the space and time of the physical universe, and it has no bearing on our experiences until our physical life is gone.
There are numerous possible explanation for such experiences. And so I consider this a poor basis for theological and metaphysical conclusions.
I do not believe that… and not because I have a problem with accepting a future nonexistence. It frankly sounds just a little too easy to me… no consequences for the choices we make. If it is true I am fine with that. But I think otherwise. I think our choices create a non-physical existence we refer to as spirit and thus our choices do have consequences.
What I do not believe in are these ideas of a non-physical addition to the body which makes it alive or a person. This doesn’t agree with the evidence.
NDE’s appear to separate soul from body - so are soul and mind the same?
At some point between conception and birth G*D attaches soul / spirit to flesh, and while the (un)conscious mind emanates from the physical mind, NDEs suggest that an equally conscious soul/spirit is able to operate while the brain is flatlined, and that those memories appear to implant into the memory area of the brain.
I have no idea how the soul affects the material brain; but either all NDEs are to be ignored, or NDEs suggest that soul/spirit has a separable existence.
“Are” needs to be “appear to be”. A statement of fact isn’t enough to rule out ancillary facts.
NDE’s appear to separate soul from body - so are soul and mind the same?
At some point between conception and birth G*D attaches soul / spirit to flesh, and while the (un)conscious mind emanates from the physical mind, NDEs suggest that an equally conscious soul/spirit is able to operate while the brain is flatlined, and that those memories appear to implant into the memory area of the brain.
I have no idea how the soul affects the material brain; but either all NDEs are to be ignored, or NDEs suggest that soul/spirit has a separable existence.
Isn’t this a contradictory statement that while you believe there is life after death, but you believe there isn’t non physical addition to the body? If the body has turned to ashes, then what is left of that person beside the spirit.
The bible has plenty of description of the spiritual being, not veriable by any physical evidence of course. However the effects are there and can’t be denied.
It is a very interesting observation indeed. if a spirit can remember an event (memory) and then it means that a spirit has memory. Perhaps the memory resides with our spirit instead of our brain. And that memory is implanted (sourced) into the memory area of the brain and is accessible to us (when we are alive) as long as we have access to that part of the brain or the brain cell containing that memory is still there.
However, once our physical bodies die, then our spirits are no longer locked in with our physical bodies and brains and thus no longer limited with the capacity of the brain and then we might have access to all the memories that is part of us perhaps since we were born till the day we die. No longer will we forget any memories of any events since forgetfulness is part of the effect of a physical brain. Isn’t that an interesting and mind blowing thought?
While I agree that not everything that is attributed to evil spirits is caused by demons, demon possession is not very rare depending on where you live. I have lived in Australia for 12 years and not once have I seen a demon possessed person though I know that evil spirits are alive and active in Australia. That is not how they work in the western culture. Ignorance is a bliss and they like to keep it that way. My brother in law who live in Indonesia who is in the ministry of exorcism have faced different circumstances entirely. In a culture where shamans, magicians, mediums and all kind of magic practioniers are abound, people attributed everything to demons. Fear of evil is the way the devil work in such countries. Either you fear demons excessively or you completely ignore demons. Both way are completely fine with the devil. My brother in law encounter many those demon possessed persons frequently in his ministry and only by the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit that those persons can be freed from demons.
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
There is only a contradiction if you don’t pay attention to the details of what I said.
I did not say there isn’t any non-physical aspect to our existence.
I said there is no non-physical thing which makes us alive or a person. It is the composition, organization, and processes in our physical body which makes us alive and a person. All the evidence tells us this is the case.
In other words… you can say the point is that the physical aspect of our existence comes first. And our spiritual aspect is a consequence or creation of our physical existence. (like a plant growing from a seed Paul says in 1 Cor 15) AND the spiritual has no part in the here and now as any part of our physical life. It is outside physical space and time.
The idea of something left is a space-time notion. There is nothing left in the space and time of this universe.
I started with science and only read the bible and considered whether it had any meaning and value when science was already part of my perceptual filter.
I see no reason to understand the Bible as speaking of any effects of a spiritual existence which science can measure. And everything the Bible says most certainly can and has been denied by a vast number of people. Saying they cannot do so is unreasonable.
I do of course view science and faith having the same goal - the pursuit of truth. The means to that goal however is different from science and faith. Science is always climbing up the ladder of the mountain of knowledge and it is still growing day by day. There are still modifications made in scientific truth to accomodate a new proven reality/facts. As it was said elsewhere, all the scientists are in pursuit of truth and if they do approach the mountain top, then they might found that there are many theologians who had been in that mountain top from the very beginning.
Faith started with revelation from the all knowing God. It is also a pursuit of truth and hence could not and should not contradict with the facts of science. While knowledge from God is infallible, our interpretation and perception of that truth is not and must be reinterpreted accordingly to accomodate the facts of science. In this sense, faith and science go hand in hand together to find that ultimate truth that has been revealed to us by God.
Psalms 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
Scientists look to heaven for answer.
Theologians look to the scripture for answer.
That is impossible and that is the whole point. Objective evidence only exists because of the mathematical space-time structure of the universe which things are a part of. So there can be no objective evidence of anything which isn’t a part of that structure. Since there is no objective evidence of anything spiritual and indeed only objective evidence that no such thing is a part of the measurable universe, then if such a thing exists then it would be outside that space-time structure.
So there is only subjective evidence from things like the Bible and our own personal experience and feelings. For example, there is the words of Paul in 1 Cor 15 and there is my feeling that only nonexistence after death is just too easy. But of course, Paul could have been wrong and it really could be that easy. If so that is fine with me. But my honest opinion is otherwise.
If Paul is correct in 1 Cor 15, then why it is only logical for the spirit to exist only after our physical existence is gone. How did our material existence give rise to spiritual existence?
Isn’t it more plausible based on your understanding of after life existence and biblical data, that we do have a spiritual existence in our material body as given by God?
Genesis 2:7
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
The divine breath is the meaning of the word “inspiration.” God made the man from the stuff of the earth according to its laws and then spoke to us in order to bring the mind of man alive with the abstract ideas of things like love and personhood.
I certainly do not believe God is some ancient necromancer making golems of dust and bone with magic. And I see no reason to believe in the soul of the Gnostics or reincarnation religions.
It is not plausible to believe in things which contradict the objective evidence.
Paul says the physical is first and then the spiritual. He also says if there is a physical body then there is spiritual body – which implies that both exist (just like the plant growing from the seed). So when Paul says the spiritual body is only after the physical body dies, I think it is talking about our experience of things. We only experience the spiritual body after the physical body dies.
Notice I do not say the physical body and spiritual body exist at the same time, nor does Paul. That would be wrong because the spiritual body isn’t a part of space-time of the physical universe.
This comes not from the nature of material things but from the nature of spiritual existence which takes its form from the choices of living organisms. The spiritual is the greater reality in which God exists and it is the soil in which the seed takes root. And thus the substance doesn’t come from the physical but from the spiritual. All things ultimately have their substance from the spiritual (including the physical universe), but the substance of the physical universe is bound by the mathematical space-time laws of nature which is the form of this thing God created. But the greater spiritual reality is filled with this potential for taking its form from the choices of living organisms – in our case both the body and the mind. Thus the spiritual body grows taking its pattern from the physical just as the plant takes its pattern from the seed using the substance of the air, water, and soil to grow in to something much bigger.