If all Christians were to choose like I and many others do to simply state that we tend towards believing grog’s plain reading of the precepts found in the Bible and tend towards a healthy distrust of everybody else’s ability to truly come to grips with how life came to this earth, then there would not have to be such division and strife.
There. Fixed it for you.
Since you are an expert debater, I can only assume that you intentionally left out a few details to confuse your readers. Yes, there are some mammals in and amongst dinosaur bones… very small ones… mouse and shrew like mammals that are small enough to avoid being eaten by T-Rex.
But certainly you knew this.
What are missing from the dino fossil record are fossils of Large mammals… like hippos, elephants, giraffes - - you know, all the Fun Mammals!
And since there are marine dinosaurs who breath air, you would expect that whales (who also breath air) would be found in the same rocks that these marine dinosaurs are. They are not.
They are found in more recent strata … rock where there are no dinosaurs, but whales… always Newer than the rock where there are no whales, but dinosaurs.
You have zero explanation for that, @Grog.
@Grog, I would avoid that speech in the future - - the one where you speak with so much pride of how you interpret the plain words of the Bible. . . I sincerely doubt that you do. Let’s turn to just one chapter of Job . . .
BOOK OF JOB : Chapter 38
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job from the whirlwind. He [Yahweh] said:
Job 38:2 Who is this who obscures My counsel with ignorant words?
Job 38:3 Get ready to answer Me like a man; when I question you, you will inform Me.
[^@grog, is God speaking to the Christian Evolutionists? Or is God speaking to you?]
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/ / / / / / /
Job 38:4 is not really relevant to this discussion, but I couldn’t help but include this gem!
Job 38:4 Where were you when I established the earth?
[The term “established” in Hebrew is ‘yaw-sad’, “to sit together”, “to settle”, “to lay agreement”. “to found”. Gesenius points out that “-sad” is derived from Sanskrit [I suggest probably via Persian], where it means “to sit”, and is (big surprise!) a cognate of the English word “-set”. ]
/ / / / / / / / /
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[God asks a trick question! Is he using plain words? Does he really mean “foundations” for
a planet spinning in the middle of the cosmos ? He is clearly asking about the Earth’s cornerstone.]
Job 38:6 What supports its foundations? Or who laid its cornerstone
[@Grog, what is the plain reading of the morning stars singing? Wouldn’t it be that “stars sang” ?!?]
Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
[@Grog, what is the plain meaning of the sea bursting forth from a womb? What is the plain
meaning of the oceans being held back by doors? Would not the plain reading be
a womb and doors?]
Job 38:8 Who enclosed the sea behind doors when it burst from the womb,
Job 38:12 Have you ever in your life commanded the morning or assigned the dawn its place,
[@Grog, isn’t this plain reading for where earthquakes come from? “Dawn”, the "Morning"
shakes the Earth. That’s what it says, in plain words, yes?]
Job 38:13 so it may seize the edges of the earth and shake the wicked out of it?
[@Grog, this is the famous passage where God describes the storage places for
snow and hail …. this is where snow and hail come from, right? In plain words?]
Job 38:22 Have you entered the place where the snow is stored? Or have you seen the storehouses of hail,
Job 38:23 which I hold in reserve for times of trouble, for the day of warfare and battle?
[@Grog, so here God talks about the laws of nature . . . the laws that have authority over clouds,
and rain, and lightning. See how God uses plain talk to say that he makes the rain?]
Job 38:33 Do you know the laws of heaven? Can you impose its authority on earth?
Job 38:34 Can you command the clouds so that a flood of water covers you?
Job 38:35 Can you send out lightning bolts, and they go? Do they report to you: “Here we are”? …
Job 38:37 Who has the wisdom to number the clouds? Or who can tilt the water jars of heaven
[^@Grog, in plain words, are there water jars in the sky?]
I liked this so much I couldn’t just click the heart!
I must confess, I am the one to blame for giving @grog his very own thread with this post. Initially, he had posted it on the Homeschool Forum which is obviously not where it belongs. I could have deleted it but I suspected it could actually give rise to some constructive dialogue 
. I’m glad it indeed turned out this way. Thanks everyone for contributing to the conversation here!
There are loads of people within the Church who hold opinions very similar to that of @grog, but they don’t come here to share those views. We can thank him for taking the effort to do that. If all those Christians would speak their minds here, they would probably be considered “slanderers” too. It appears they often don’t fully realize how they are hurting their brothers and sisters in Christ. Perhaps rightfully so, they believe truth takes precedence over feelings. Because of this, silencing people cannot improve the situation, only dialogue can. For this dialogue, we need to have patience with each other and to take the time to listen. Quite paradoxically, we have to live up to this standard even when we feel our conversation partners do not.
Well said, my friend. Well said. I shall be reflecting on this and taking it to heart.
Thank you for the good work you (and the other moderators, some of whom have been lurking here as well) do.
Thanks for this perspective. So I have been told over and over again, essentially, that I don’t listen to evidence, that I am foolish for going against the grain of science, and that I slander anyone who takes a leap from the plain reading of the whole of the Bible that suggests that God is creator. And this thread of God as creator does no where suggest that He created a simple cell and empowered it with energy from the sun to make it develop. This thread suggested that He created creatures already developed. If I cannot have a discussion with others who do not stand upon the plainness of this Biblical thread without being accused of being a “slanderer” then I don’t know how to have a discussion. This is NOT judgement against one’s heart. This IS discernment that takes an idea strange to the main tenants of the Bible and holds it to its light.
And as far as science being naturalistic and all-the discussions we have had along these lines. Science is obviously investigating life by studying behaviors and patterns in nature. HOWEVER, from what I have seen and read about in textbooks and from what is being taught in science classrooms all over the world, the idea of God cannot be permitted anywhere in the equation of understanding life including how mankind got here…since this concept cannot be tested and tried in the fires of the scientific method, naturalistic science easily tends towards Naturalism which is no longer science, but a belief system.
You can say what you want about how the evidence proves evolution right and creationist wrong but after reading from a lot of brilliant folks, I don’t see adequate evidence to support the theories developed by believers in the religion of naturalism that energy produced complexity through eons from simple cells perhaps planted by anything…I see plenty of evidence for species changing. I am dumbfounded by how many types of dog breeds with differing nose structures and abilities that all can be manufactured by breeding techniques from a wolf. Adaptation is common, designed and everywhere in the fossil record. This does not point to common decent which is a MUST in the Naturalistic belief system, worldview and religion.
And notice that I did NOT accuse Christian theistic evolutionists of being believers in the naturalistic worldview. All that I am doing is suggesting that BELIEF is a really strong force that can tend to skew the results to fit its belief. The evidence out there for example in the fossil record shows adaptation but it does not show all of life from a bacterium planted which could have been planted by an alien life for the benefit of fitting the naturalistic belief system and I believe that Christians should be aware that it could be easy to subject our beliefs about God to fit beliefs from the Naturalistic tendencies in secular schools in full force in the secular scientific community around the world.
I heard one comment about how creationists adjust their definition of a “kind” in this latest discussion to fit what discoveries are made by “evolutionists” as if this is a stupid thing and as if there are not brilliant creationist scientists who are not viewing the evidence for themselves. This type of comment I would view akin to a competitive game of worldview ping pong between the creationists and the evolutionists where the sides are fist pumping over who is making the better shots for a score. I don’t know about you, but that is not me. I have trusted in the Bible plain reading from everything to how to be married, what psychology should look like, what living a life of holiness looks like and how it can be accomplished and about How God defines himself in relation to His creatures. And I have to say that it has been the most interesting journey because it has laid the grounds for an interesting combination of incredible joy in God and a longing to be with Him for eternity even before a successful life on earth combined with getting ridiculed and accused of hatred…unfortunately even from those who go to church. When my wife and I were in marriage counseling, I was amazed at how many of the marriage books I read (not from advise from our church) which were secular psychology buttered with churchy semantics. And our Christian bookstore was littered with these best sellers! I say this not to brag to you about this being a parting shot onto the corner of the theistic evolutionist side of the table in a ping pong contest. I say this to suggest that God is indeed real. He is working in our midst. He is not distant. His gospel of forgiveness that gives life in an instant when we by faith choose it, so that no man may boast, and is the best news for people on the planet! Without blushing in the slightest I remain standing on the Biblical precept that this God created kinds of plants and animals and He created Adam and Eve, the mother of all of life. And the gospel I subscribe to is about Jesus my Creator choosing to die for me, a sinner because He loves me despite me.
Thanks again for you time.
We call them to repentance but are commanded not to yoke with them. As far as a church that may have increasing numbers of nominal believers warming the pews, I believe Pastors proclaim Biblical precepts with kindness yet with boldness in reverence of actual precepts from from every single word, sentence, paragraph and book in Scripture…for it is powerful for changing hearts. And worship should be more and more adoring and honoring to Jesus, our Creator and to the One who was willing to die in our place and give us His righteousness.
Casper, this is the reason why I like this site so much:[quote=“Casper_Hesp, post:125, topic:35076”]
For this dialogue, we need to have patience with each other and to take the time to listen. Quite paradoxically, we have to live up to this standard even when we feel our conversation partners do not.
[/quote]
After reading all of the responses thoughtfully and (hopefully) with an open mind, one thought stuck in my mind: “If a kingdom is divided and rebelling against itself, that kingdom cannot stand" (Mark 3:23 - Amplified Bible). Jesus went on to say: "Truly and solemnly I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever abusive and blasphemous things they utter; But whoever speaks abusively against or maliciously misrepresents the Holy Spirit can never get forgiveness, but is guilty of and is in the grasp of an everlasting trespass. For they persisted in saying He has an unclean spirit”.
Yes, Jesus said that under completely different circumstances, but the matter remains the same. Later on, when His disciples told Him of ‘unappointed devotees’ preaching incorrectly, what was Jesus’ response? He simply said to them that “whoever is not against us, is for us”. We are also reminded that we should not judge others, for we shall then be judged in the same manner.
That is not quoted as a reprimand aimed at any person (on both sides of the aisle, so to speak) on this Post. It is merely a thought that dominated my consciousness as I read all of the entries. My final thought is that all of us have surely benefited from this interaction. I just pray that we all ask God to forgive us if we have trespassed in any way - knowingly or unwittingly.
May I just add that my heart goes out to Greg here. He is clearly a devout Christian who is persistent in serving God above all else. Even though I think the majority of Christians (I saw something that confirms that on a Pew Research article) in America take a very literal reading of the Bible as the ‘right way’ to understand its contents, and my personal opinion is very different from that, I see no deal breaking effect in that regarding his or my faith in God. Greg’s post was probably motivated by the same force that makes me very concerned about the future of the world - yes, it is that serious. I am not talking of “Armageddon” here, I am rather referring to the tremendous loss of faith in the lives of (especially) young people when they are educated further after their school years.
No where in Scripture does it say God created nuclear fusion to fuel the Sun and yet here we are being warmed by nuclear fusion. I could go on to list a multitude of physical processes that are not mentioned in the Bible but you would accept. Why is evolution the one natural process to which you object?
So little time … and yet so much over which to face-smack myself.
Let me itemize what I seem to see in this incredibly small portion of your scientifically illiterate posting:
You acknowledge that a species can genetically change, citing domesticated dog breeding as a good example.
You then say this doesn’t point to common descent.
And yet, in your own words, you write: “I am dumbfounded by how many types of dog breeds . . . can be manufactured by breeding techniques from a wolf.”
@grog, by definition, this is a “common descent” scenario. Not all examples of common descent lead to speciation.
SO. . . was this just an impulsive typo you wrote? Or do you actually reject the idea that the gene pools of domesticated dog breeds came from wolves? Did they come from wolves? Or did God create a “dog” (kind), in addition to a “wolf” (kind)?
[Edited for Tone]
I think giving some of the more disruptive Creationists their own thread is a good way to narrow the field of disruption. I know that I sometimes post too frequently in various threads. This should be no less a concern for YEC posters as well.
I think the YEC discussion pages could rightly be inspired by the BioLogos example of giving Evolutionists their own individual thread as well!
Certainly you must have noticed all the God and Jesus discussions on this list. There is hardly a person now posting here that doesn’t think God is real, or that he is not in our midst.
Do you write these kinds of implicitly condescending sentences to provoke, or because your memory is terrible?
(redacted)
George, this comes too close for comfort to the name-calling we’ve discussed so much in this thread. It’s gratuitously hurtful when you can bet it will be read by one to whom you refer.
I was actually trying to choose a precise description, not a name-calling description. I didn’t know what other phrase to use regarding someone who would come into a midst of scientists and tell them what they do for a living is a non-science.
That’s pretty toxic in my view. But I will go back to my original posting and modify it … somehow.
Much appreciated!
I don’t think it’s probably worthwhile for me to continue to engage with this thread, but as I reflect on the discussion, this line strikes me as particularly key:
Issues of slander completely aside for the moment, and just looking at the meat of the dialogue between Greg and the rest of us, it strikes me that this sort of confidence is the crux of the matter. When we are pretty certain that other people have done all the homework for us, we don’t really feel the need to do the homework for ourselves. This confidence is why, after multiple extraordinarily gracious, informative, and no doubt time-consuming responses penned by Chris, Socratic, and others, we haven’t really moved away from repeating over and over that there’s no evidence for macroevolution or that God must have created kinds because, well, that’s what the people I trust believe and it seems obvious to me from how I’ve been taught to read Scripture and therefore it must be true, QED.
Against this backdrop, I really appreciated hearing from Socratic that it was issues of relationship and character that brought him out of the YEC fold: relationship with persistent scientist friends, and character issues evident in rude responses and dishonest quote-mining from YEC luminaries. This reminds me again that real-world relationship-building and character formation in the direction of gracious dialogue are the keys to moving BioLogos’s mission forward in the Church. If nothing else, this has been a helpful reminder of what works, and what doesn’t.
Grace and peace to all,
AMWolfe
Good observations. It also supports nobodyyouknow’s thought of exploring the theologic aspects with those for whom that is most important. But I agree, the relationships are of great importance. A forum of this nature is helpful, as thoughts are voiced that may not be made face to face, and helps with honest dialogue.
It’s not dangerous to teach evolutionary theory to children! Its dangerous to teach lies to children ( dinosaurs and humans lived together, etc) and make them think asking questions is rebellious/ wrong.
Being honest with kids early by telling them Evolution in no way negates God is the best thing to do. And it saves the money that would be used to pay for therapy for the kids as adults, battling trust issues. All because Mommy and Daddly lied to them and discouraged questions and critical thinking.
It is rather ironic that the groups that advocate not teaching evolutionary concepts, are also those who tend to not participate in the Santa Claus myth because they feel that lying to small children about Santa undermines trust. I tend to think the Santa thing is no big deal, so can go either way and sort of lean toward making it clear it is all imaginary from the get go, and it is sort of an introduction to abstract thinking.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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