Watch the video for yourself. You can find it by going on the Biologos front page then click on "is there scientific evidence for evolution…there will be a thing there about whale evolution that recommends the Nat Geo link. Listen to what this man is saying here…he says that from one skull, he assumes that this was a four legged animal with short fur. And from this draws a mapping of the evolution of the whale. This occurs a lot you know. I have read many articles from creationists that display how evolutionists will make broad theories from fossil fragments. That is not science.
I have suggested that going on a limb from what the Bible plainly states and intentions is dangerous. I do believe that a person can be a believer in Christ for the forgiveness of sins and be an evolutionist. But I also believe that if this movement catches on, it will lead to a watering down of the Bible and the gospel in time. That is my belief and if you don’t like this in me, I am a big boy and can handle the heat from your rebuttal.
Here’s a thought: what kind of a wimpy God would feel threatened by the small mammal Pakicetus? So threatened that he inspires his equally insecure followers to distort the work of scientists? Is the Bible really the “Diary of a Wimpy God”?
1 Like
That’s not the point, Greg.
The point is that you claimed:[quote=“grog, post:1, topic:35076”]
Because the evidence is just not there, it could very well be bogus and it could be a failure. There is plenty of evidence in favor of what some would call micro evolution but very little true evidence that does not rely on pre determined judgements for evolution from common decent.
[/quote]
You make sweeping claims about how much or how little evidence there is, when you clearly haven’t engaged with evidence at all. Watching 10 min of video isn’t even a start.
Don’t make claims about evidence when you are too arrogant and/or frightened to examine the evidence.
2 Likes
Then I hope you’re not taking any chances by working from an English translation from the languages in which the Bible was written.
1 Like
What people say is not evidence. Examine the evidence before making claims about the evidence.
1 Like
I understand it when I see a scientist take one single skull fragment and define the mapping of the evolution of a whale in detail by directly using that fragment only to be fraudulent science. and when I ask about explaining evolution with simplicity, I am not after a person to speak to me in laymans terms. I am after wanting to learn how an evoltionary theist believes evolution really works. A whale like creature at first breathes through his mouth and nose and this evolves to the top of his head. Can one really believe that energy and chance are smart enough to alter the body of the whale to accommodate its needs? Or does God come to the rescue and help that whale like creature develop the blow hole? I am not being sarcastic. I really want to understand. God is not a God of confusion and I find it quite confusing to consider the possibility of such chance change that develops into the beauty and complexity today. And I find it additionally confusing when one suggests that science is important combined with God is continuously interjecting in nature for evolution to occur which makes science silly because it will second guess itself to death.
In church today, our pastor referenced a verse I think in Is 40 that referenced the “end of the earth” as a descriptive element towards a more pertinent precept in the subject of the sentence. The passage was not making a declaration that the world was flat. On the other hand, the idea of God as creator of kinds and creator of Adam and Eve, “the mother of all life” is threaded through the entire bible and I believe that naturalists and also evolutionary theists push against this thread. And this is not just my opinion. there are many very smart well meaning creatiionists out there who agree.
It makes me kind of sad that, despite my trying really hard to make my point short and simple and cut out all the fluff, I still wasn’t very clear, apparently.
I find absolutely nothing objectionable in what you’ve just said. Nothing! I hope you hear that, dear brother. You are perfectly welcome to believe what you will about evolutionary creationism. You might even be right! How should I know? I’m not a prophet, nor am I God. So believe what you will about this movement as a whole, in the abstract.
What you’re not free to do (as a Christian, anyway…) is to assume you know why people believe what they do, and then to slander them and say that they are running after the praise of men and not of God. You’re not free to say that evolutionary creationist Christians
You’re not free to talk like that because in so doing you are assuming that you know that I, your brother in Christ, am teaching my kids the way I teach my kids specifically in order to appease secular universities instead of … instead of inspiring my children to “work hard and trust in God”? Do you realize you’re saying that I’m not teaching my dear children to trust in God? It angers me even to retype that, Greg. Do you know what you’re saying? Do you know what sacrifices that I or my family have made for the gospel? No, you don’t, because I hide those very sacrifices from this public forum for fear of losing my job. Do you realize that I teach my kids evolutionary creationism with pride precisely because I believe that my God, the God of the Bible and the Christian faith, created the world and because at the same time, I don’t want other people teaching my children bald-faced lies about people riding dinosaurs, like they just tried to do the other day?
No, you don’t know my heart and you don’t know the hearts of other evolutionary creationists. And I so dearly wish you would stop pretending you do.
If you still don’t understand how you have offended, I’m not sure we can get much further, my brother.
Have a good night.
(Ironically, because of the emotion I’m showing here, the moderators will be more likely to censor me. Which is probably fitting. But at least I’ve spoken my peace. [edited for one small typo])
5 Likes
God is the creater of all life. yes. we believe that.
And death happens too.
what do you think of medicine. it is not much mentioned in the bible. ever go to a hospital? for any purpose, maybe have a wife giving birth? get small pox injection? polio? or do you get all of your healing from the bible? Trying to get a sense of who you are.
i don’t understand your response.
What do you think is most important in your church/bible experience?
So, for example for me, i see Jesus pushing forgiveness and compassion as keys to the kind of heaven he has in mind. And that is hard for me to stomach- not getting revenge on people who disrespect me. I would rather get revenge, paybacks. Like Rambo. So the forgiving attitude of Jesus is a struggle for me. but helps me sleep.
So for you, what in the bible are the important messages? And if you want to quote your pastor, what sort of denomination do you answer to? But this forum is for your opinion.
So tell me this, then: Since we find the whale fossils with mid-head nostrils in older rock layers than fossils with high-head nostrils… did God suddenly decide that the original design wasn’t good enough?
Or was his plan, all along, to allow time to promote the evolution of whales by slowly moving the nostrils higher up on the head? Only the time-consuming processes of Evolution support this interpretation. Otherwise, you have to propose that God kept changing his mind … and changing it in less than 2000 years.
Your conception of what God is doing with the multiple forms of creatures … buried in one layer of rock but not in others … is not only incomprehensible, but it doesn’t fit with what we know about the age of the Earth.
1 Like
They are agreeing in an echo chamber. God uses scientific processes all the time … to make rain … to make snow… to bring the fruit of agriculture to the people of his Earth.
But as soon as you start deciding that God must have created life quickly, you make God into a bumbling pot-maker who makes first one kind of pot … and then makes yet another kind of pot … with no passage of time to explain why large mammals are in the new rocks… and dinosaurs are in the old rocks. It is completely incoherent conception of the Divine … unlike the majestic scope of creation that unfolding evolution allows for.
1 Like
I think you need to grab a cup of coffee, Greg. Or maybe get a good night’s rest and start over.
I explained in very great detail that scientists have used nine different lines of evidence to establish how cetaceans (whales and dolphins) have evolved. I explained that each line of evidence, itself, contains a very large quantity of evidence. I provided graphics that summarized two lines of evidence, and I provided a link to an article that described in luscious detail the nine lines.
I don’t know how it is that after everything I wrote, and the link I provided, you continue to insist that scientists are relying on exactly one and only one piece of evidence, a single skull.
I don’t know how to write more clearly, Greg. So I’m not going to bother any more. Whatever the key is to communicate science to Greg’s mind, I don’t possess it. So I’m not going to invest any more time. God has given me plenty of other things to do, so I am now going to move on to them. I gave it my best shot, but somehow you aren’t understanding. I don’t know whether it is my fault for being a lousy writer, or your fault for not reading carefully, or a combination of the two. But I’m not going to spend any more time trying to figure it out. Perhaps God will bring forth seed from my efforts at some future time. That is my hope and prayer.
Blessings to you and yours, Greg.
4 Likes
Please point me to your video.
And explain why you ignore the evidence (which is not all of the evidence) that Chris has offered to you in favor of your fixation on a video you didn’t even bother to watch completely.
3 Likes
I don’t know how many people caught exactly what went on in these two paragraphs. Greg starts out saying that Chris “says there is evidence.” This is incomplete: Chris LINKED you to the evidence. Greg goes on to repeat how disappointed in the Nat Geo video he was, and in the very next paragraph he asks, “So what is the evidence?”
…You were just linked to it! The problem appears to be that you won’t bother to click on a link in order to examine evidence. You say you wonder if it’s all based on presumptions, but you make no real effort to do anything other than wonder! This (it seems to me) is why Chris, at least, threw up his hands at you.
You want to be spoon-fed information, fine. But I hope you will be, at the very least, appreciative of those who are willing to take the time and energy to indulge you.
I don’t envy you having to respond to so many different people who are mostly opposed to the views you hold dear. And I applaud the willingness you have shown just by coming here to expose your views to criticism, and maybe even improvement. I wish you the best.
3 Likes
He isn’t even consistent. First it was a single skull, and now it is a skull fragment.
1 Like
I usually avoid discussions with you, Greg, but I’ll take one stab at this thing for the sake of those you’ve offended and those who may find your words a stumbling block to their own faith …
Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should be more careful in what you say, for your actions don’t fit your words. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. Matt. 12:36
Greg, “this movement” (meaning evolution) did not appear in your lifetime. Evolution “caught on” many decades (probably a century) before you were born, yet the Bible and the gospel that you believed unto eternal life somehow managed to survive intact long enough for you to arrive on the scene. Do you not have faith in Christ’s promises?
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. Matt. 24:35
And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matt. 24:14
The Bible and the gospel will be there until the end for your children, your grandchildren, and everyone else yet to be born. Evolution will not cause them to “miss out” on hearing the message.
Greg, you have badly misread the situation with the younger generation, as well as the facts about people’s beliefs on evolution. Let’s take a look at some actual figures from Gallup
As you can see, the belief that you hold (God created humans in present form) has dropped 2% in the last 30 years. The belief that I and most others here share (God-guided evolution) has dropped 7%, while the numbers of those who believe in evolution without God has risen 10% over that same period. Notice that most of this change has taken place since 2006. This aligns with the Pew Research Center’s findings, which showed a 7% increase in the number of “unaffiliated” (atheist/agnostic) adults from 2007-2014: “The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center. Moreover, these changes are taking place across the religious landscape, affecting all regions of the country and many demographic groups… (And) the drop in Christian affiliation is particularly pronounced among young adults.”
Before you (or anyone else) rushes to judgment on the reasons why young adults are leaving the church, let’s once again try taking a look at some actual evidence, such as this Barna poll that lists six reasons why young adults are leaving the church. No. 3 among them is that they perceive the church as antagonistic to science, particularly in the debate over evolution.
Now, I think you would agree that it is foolish for a young person to reject Christ because they have been told they cannot believe in Christ and also believe in evolution. (Unless, of course, you believe that all of us who accept God-guided evolution as true cannot be saved.) All that we are doing here is trying to snatch some of those young people out of the fire by showing them that evolution is not a valid reason to reject the gospel. You, obviously, are not helping in this effort. In fact, I would say that you are unnecessarily putting a stumbling block in the path of these young people, so in a very real sense, you are hastening the very apostasy that you say you want to avoid.
You are right. My suggestion is along the lines of Galatians 2:1-10. BioLogos and those of us here who support its mission are preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the “uncircumcised” pagans of our society who accept evolution. You and those who reject evolution cannot reach these people. Every time that you open your mouth, you give them more reason to think they made the right decision to leave the church. (No offense. You just don’t speak their language.) A more effective approach is for you to preach the gospel to the “circumcised”, as did Peter, and allow BioLogos and us to preach to the “uncircumcised,” as did Paul. And let us all imitate his example in 1 Cor. 9:19-23:
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Late additional paraphrase to make it perfectly clear: To the scientific I became scientific, that I might win the scientific…
7 Likes
I have not read the 9 lines of reasoning. I am sure that many brilliant creationist have and have refuted much or shown that there is a difference between evolution within a kind vs a kind developing into another.
When my wife and I have a discussion where there is disagreement, sometimes we dig into the past or begin to layer the issue at hand to justify a present stance within the argument and thus water down the issue.
The issue I was pointing to was the Nat Geo link that biologos was recommending about whale evolution. And the program started by revealing a single skull and developed an entire whale tree from this single skull suggesting that it was indeed the skull of a walking mammal.
The second point I was wondering about is the logic of a mammal developing say a blow hole where the wind tunnel is rearranged. Is it really logical to think that the presence of energy and chance mutation really develop a more convenient way of breathing apart from God our designer intervening? I don’t think so and I don’t know how anybody could think this could occur. After all, a whale with no blow hole is not going to die early due to not having one…it is more an issue of convenience per design in my mind anyway. So if God does invervene, then this (again I know) makes science limp in the course of historical science because it does not know when to study naturally or when to just believe. This would not be a problem for me because I am science agnostic but if is a problem for theistic evolutionists that admire science for its ability to determine truth.
If there is so much evidence for evolution, then why in the world would Biologos choose this nat geo clip to supports its claims? If this is the type of science used to support this worldview, then the theory of evolution is indeed in trouble. I’m not calling anyone who believes in this a non Christian or not trying to slander anyone here…please.
I will look at the 9-I am sure I have read most of them from one source or another in previous reads of hundreds of documents and articles on the topic.
Some of the most vibrant churches at least in America right now are being led by creationist pastors. But the majority of professing Christians in America I would hesitate to even call Christians judging by their behavior and beliefs surrounding pre marital sex and the like. And this is an opinion only because I personally do not consider a “seeker church” a vibrant church. I have many friends and family members who are a mess after attending this type of entertainment driven club. (sorry) I can tell you story after story after story and they all just drive me bonkers. …