Is God Dishonest for Designing a Universe Where it looks as if he doesn't exist?

[St.Roymond]

@03Cobra

Phil, the view that a value of 3 for pi is found in the Bible is not correct.

It doesn’t take a very thorough reading of the text to see that the bath had a rim (or “lip” in the link you provided).

A bowl with a rim or brim that is 10 cm across the top could easily be encircled by a cord of 30 cm because the sides slope.

The trouble with that explanation is that it requires measuring inside the lip for circumference if the diameter is being measured at the lip crest, or that the lip curves in while the diameter is being measured lower where the material bulges outwards.

@03Cobra

But, back on topic, the universe looks very much to be like God exists. The wondrous creatures we see, the proportions of nature, many things point to more than random chance.

Consider the fact that the sun is 400 times the size of the moon and 400 times as far away. Without that combination, no eclipse would happen. So the heavens show us God’s involvement.

Why?

A good argument could be made that a moon that always gives annular eclipses would better show the involvement of God because then the sun would always give light. And indeed the fact that sometimes the sun is totally covered but sometimes shines as a ring around the moon’s edge could be used to argue that it’s all an accident and there is no Designer.

@jpm

My point exactly. I think your examples are good in how we see God in creation as individuals, but fall short of proof of God or perhaps even as evidence of God. God is not going to beat us over the head with such evidence, but leave room for faith

Just what I was indicating with my “tyrant” point: if the universe gave undeniable proof for God, it would be little different from holding a gun to a person’s head to get a confession… and such a confession is worthless.

[St.Roymond]

@Vinnie

You can’t interpret the Bible in a vacuum. Its impossible to interpret anything without recourse to background knowledge and assumptions about other things.

You interpret it as what it is. Every time that anyone has had to adjust their interpretation due to something from science it’s been an indication that what they’re adjusting wasn’t what scripture said but what they had imposed on it – the only conflicts are artificial.

The biggest error in interpreting scripture these days is to read it as though it was a friend’s great-grandfather’s diary of events he lived through and is giving observations about. That error is made in every single atheist video I’ve seen on YouTube, and it’s made by every single YEC video on YouTube as well, and sometimes I can’t help but laugh because those atheists fail to see that they’re making the same mistake the YECers are.

The Bible is ancient literature and when read as ancient literature it doesn’t need any adjusting because nothing from any science can change ancient literature, and nothing in ancent literature can challenge science because none of it ever “talks science”. Just by acknowledging that it is ancient literature and thus refusing to impose modern views on it the problem disappears’ one doesn’t even need to know the ancient worldviews it is written from in order to avoid that error.

[03Cobra (Vance)]

@St.Roymond

The trouble with that explanation is that it requires measuring inside the lip for circumference if the diameter is being measured at the lip crest, or that the lip curves in while the diameter is being measured lower where the material bulges outwards.

That is not a problem.

Maybe a picture will help:

And the passage:

Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely.

24 Under its brim were panels all around it, each of ten cubits, surrounding the sea; there were two rows of panels, cast when it was cast.

25 It stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was set on them. The hindquarters of each were toward the inside.

26 Its thickness was a handbreadth; its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held two thousand baths.

It is very reasonable to view the sloping side as having a circumference of 30 at a point where a rope (such as one for moving or stabilizing it) while measurements at the brim (either on the inside or outside) would be 10 across.

For example, looping a rope right above the “seam” about halfway down would take less than pi times the distance across the brim.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@St.Roymond

And indeed the fact that sometimes the sun is totally covered but sometimes shines as a ring around the moon’s edge could be used to argue that it’s all an accident and there is no Designer.

Actually, that fact has enabled more learning about how our sun works. And the fact that we can ‘see’ so much of the universe from our unusual place in the Milky Way galaxy does not subtract from a teleological suggestion of design.

From my good friend ChatGPT:

Total eclipses provide a unique opportunity to study the Sun’s outer atmosphere, or corona, which is usually obscured by the bright disk of the Sun. During a total solar eclipse, the Moon passes directly between the Sun and the Earth, blocking the Sun’s light and allowing us to see the corona.

Studying the corona during a total eclipse can provide important insights into the Sun’s magnetic field and the behavior of its plasma, or ionized gas. For example, scientists can use observations of the corona during a solar eclipse to study the Sun’s magnetic field lines, which are thought to be the cause of the corona’s complex and dynamic structure. They can also use these observations to study the density and temperature of the corona, which can help them understand the mechanisms that heat the corona to millions of degrees Celsius, much hotter than the Sun’s visible surface.

Total eclipses have also been used to make important discoveries, such as the first observation of the Sun’s helium atmosphere during the 1868 solar eclipse. In addition, total eclipses have been used to test predictions of Einstein’s theory of general relativity, such as the bending of starlight by the Sun’s gravity.

Overall, total eclipses provide a rare opportunity to study the Sun’s outer atmosphere and make important discoveries about the behavior of the Sun and its interaction with the rest of the solar system.

Annular eclipses are useful for studying other aspects of the Sun. For example, during an annular eclipse, scientists can observe and study the chromosphere, a layer of the Sun’s atmosphere that is located just above the visible surface. The chromosphere is an important region for studying the Sun’s magnetic field and its interactions with the rest of the solar system.

In addition, annular eclipses can also be used to study the Sun’s visible surface, or photosphere, which is typically too bright to observe in detail. During an annular eclipse, the visible portion of the Sun’s disk is partially obscured by the Moon, which can provide an opportunity to study the photosphere in greater detail.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

It’s pretty chatty. Of course we’re in a habitable zone…

The shape of the Milky Way and the distribution of its stars and other celestial objects do have some indirect implications for life on Earth. For example, the location of the Sun within the Milky Way’s spiral arms has implications for the amount and types of radiation that reach our planet. In general, the spiral arms contain more interstellar gas and dust, which can block some types of radiation, while the gaps between the arms allow more radiation to pass through. This can have implications for the formation and evolution of life on Earth.

The Earth’s location in the Milky Way does provide some advantages that make it a favorable place for life to exist. One of these advantages is that our solar system is located in a relatively quiet part of the galaxy, away from the intense radiation and gravitational forces of the galactic center. This allows for a stable environment that is conducive to the development and sustenance of life.

Additionally, the Milky Way’s location within the local group of galaxies, which includes several other nearby galaxies, may have implications for the long-term survival of life on Earth. The gravitational interactions between galaxies can cause disturbances in the orbits of stars and planets, which could potentially impact the habitability of our planet over very long timescales.

But also…

Another advantage is that the Earth’s location provides a relatively unobstructed view of the universe. We are not located in the densest parts of the galaxy, which means that our view of the cosmos is not blocked by large amounts of dust and gas. This has allowed us to observe and study distant galaxies, stars, and other celestial objects that might not be visible from other locations in the galaxy.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@St.Roymond

…four-digit precision for pi

If you answered where that came from, I missed it.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

I had started to write a reply to you @St.Roymond but it got complicated so I aborted. I’d forgotten I still had it in progress when I wrote this about @Audrey’s post. Sorry for the false alarm. I see you have your hands full. I mostly liked and agreed with that whole post of yours but wanted to say something about atheists becoming believers by way of science. I’m sure it happens but that isn’t what opened my eyes. (This was the part that was difficult to explain.)

Quoted for truth.

@Audrey

There are a lot of things in the human heart that have to be in place in order for it to perceive God. Obviously, people who lack basic self-examination and who don’t believe they have sin within themselves have no reason to think they are blind or playing a role in their own unbelief. Who was it that said God hides Himself in the human heart, where we least think to look?

[Ravetastic (Rave)]

To be honest, I… don’t really see how Evolution makes it appear as if there was no creator. I’m just a middle schooler with not much experience in evolution or biology in general so this is really just my opinion, but from what I’ve seen of it, Evolution seems to display the complexity and rich history of Earth and life itself. If you ask me, it possibly points more to God, BUT, I also feel like it DOES make it seem as if God barely had a part as it seems to explain much of origin. I’m not exactly sure where my opinion stands on this, and if you ask me, Richard’s response seems to strike me with a slight tint of arrogance or cockiness. Could just be me though lol

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Or perhaps God as we know Him only arises in response to our own emergence. Being relational what need would he have to show Himself in any way at all until there was a relational point to it? Maybe the ongoing creation would have simply gone on as it does still up until then? I do think it is entirely possible for those who believe in creation - at any level of Godly involvement - to envision all of it from forever involving God, but the nature of that involvement would be commensurate to what had been created and the demands/potential for relation it poses.

I should probably make a disclaimer: I’m not a Christian and haven’t the first clue how ridiculous this may. sound to someone who knows better.

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

I’ll be honest I’m never going to read all of that because I just already know there is no one out there , whatever you want to call them, from Christians , to satanist, to pagans to half human half angel people, no one is preforming supernatural magical things from either side. If there is, they can win several million dollars
From one of many organizations that will pay for evidence of the supernatural. The stories you’re being told is either lies or either delusions or either they were tricked.

And from what i skimmed, no I did not confuse them. I simply broke everything down into a Christian perception. There is the supernatural power of God and the supernatural powers of Satan. Most Christians don’t believe in Zeus or so on.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Vinnie

Can you expect something not part of the structure to incarnate into it and have divine knowledge? Is that even possible?

I am not entirely sure what you mean by “have divine knowledge.” But I will say I don’t think the human brain is capable of holding all the knowledge of God. And… I don’t believe Jesus had any such thing. Jesus was fully man and fully God because God can be anything He chooses, including a helpless human infant who knows nothing.

@Vinnie

If so, can God not interact with nature then? Wouldn’t miraculous interactions provide objective evidence of God’s existence?

God can interact with nature without violating the laws of nature because the laws of nature are not a causally closed system. I dispute the definition of “the miraculous” as a violation of the laws of nature. I don’t believe God violates the very laws of nature He created, especially not just to impress a bunch of ignorant savages who couldn’t possibly know the difference anyway. God doesn’t have to violate those laws in order to do miraculous things.

@Vinnie

But it seems to me that you are saying “God may have had his reasons for designing a universe where he wants to know us but his existence is ambiguous.” I just find it odd that “God hiding his existence” is so less objectionable to some than “God made tree rings.”

Nonsense. The first thing I did was to dispute the claim that God did any such thing. The majority are of the opinion that the universe looks as though God DOES exist. But I have stated the reasons why God would not go overboard in this regard so that even the most skeptical materialistic atheist would have to believe also.

@Vinnie

I just find it odd that “God hiding his existence” is so less objectionable to some than “God made tree rings.”

I am not one those who finds it less objectionable, but I neither am I one who finds it odd or objectionable that other people think differently than I do. God is not hiding His existence. This does not follow just from the fact that God hasn’t provided religious nuts and abusers of religion with the vindication and power they lust for.

[St.Roymond]

@MarkD

. I mostly liked and agreed with that whole post of yours but wanted to say something about atheists becoming believers by way of science.

I tend to include that because it shows that evolution is not inherently atheistic, contrary to YEC propaganda.

@Dale

@St.Roymond

And indeed the fact that sometimes the sun is totally covered but sometimes shines as a ring around the moon’s edge could be used to argue that it’s all an accident and there is no Designer.

Actually, that fact has enabled more learning about how our sun works. And the fact that we can ‘see’ so much of the universe from our unusual place in the Milky Way galaxy does not subtract from a teleological suggestion of design.

But that’s something that only occurs very, very late in human history. A total eclipse of the sun in early history could be taken as a sign of the strength of the powers of darkness (don’t forget that in many early mythologies darkness was an enemy that the gods themselves had to strive against to keep it from swallowing existence every night).

@Dale

@St.Roymond

…four-digit precision for pi

If you answered where that came from, I missed it.

here:

@Laura

What would be required in order for a universe to look as though God does exist?

[St.Roymond]

@SkovandOfMitaze

I’ll be honest I’m never going to read all of that because I just already know there is no one out there , whatever you want to call them, from Christians , to satanist, to pagans to half human half angel people, no one is preforming supernatural magical things from either side. If there is, they can win several million dollars
From one of many organizations that will pay for evidence of the supernatural. The stories you’re being told is either lies or either delusions or either they were tricked.

So basically you’d rather call people liars than consider anything that might contradict your views.

That’s pretty sad, especially when you’re calling people here liars.

And your “no one is preforming supernatural magical things from either side. If there is, they can win several million dollars From one of many organizations that will pay for evidence of the supernatural” is just bogus – as you would recognize if you’d bothered to read. As was said of Aslan in the Chronicles of Narnia, “He’s not a tame lion”. For your statement to have any possible validity, you have to picture God as a circus performer who will put on an act on demand – and that’s so far from the Christian God it’s almost beyond description.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

I admit I mis-interpreted your post there as well at first. Sometimes irony and tongue in cheek comments just do not click and I make mistaken assumptions as to meaning. As I have read articles like the one I posted addressed that try to make the Bible define pi, that happened here with me and I suspect with Dale.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Whoosh, right by me.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@St.Roymond

But that’s something that only occurs very, very late in human history.

I’m not denying that nor was I addressing early history – those facts are more notable for our generation.

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

Yes. When someone claims things like Bigfoot, alien abductions, that they have superpowers and so on where they can do magical stuff, I think they are lying, delusional or was tricked.

If someone came up to me and said “‘I met a man who turned into a bird and flew away who was a voodoo priest “ I would not believe them. Not because it contradicts my reality, but because it’s simply not true.

When Jesus and the apostles were performing miracles, there were crowds all around. Happened say, night, here and there. The ability to perform supernatural miracles through the laying on of hands simply don’t exist and neither does people with magical superpowers. I read enough of your post to get the gist. Probably 80% of it. It’s just a longer version of what was already stated.

If I don’t believe that you’ve witnessed one curse where some bread did something magical I’m not going to believe you when you tell me 5 other stories of curses and magic.

Every single person who has made these claims have been unable to prove it. It’s like a kid saying he can fly but only when the other kids eyes are closed. Does not matter if you’re Benny Hinn or some dude named Gerald in a small town who only did it once, it never happened.

[Jay313 (Jay Johnson)]

@Vinnie

Is that where the famous wager comes from? That was an interesting quote. Thanks for sharing.

Glad you enjoyed it. Both the quote and “the wager” come from Pascal’s Pensées (“thoughts”). Online versions and pdf’s are easily found. He spent the last years of his life compiling notes for a book he didn’t live to finish. Pascal was a contemporary of Descartes and the “birth” of Enlightenment skepticism and the Catholic counter-Reformation, but he was a critic of them all. Along those lines, Pascal says,

I admire the boldness with which these persons undertake to speak of God. Their first chapter is to prove Divinity from the works of nature… I should not be astonished at their enterprise if they were addressing their argument to the faithful; for it is certain that those who have the living faith in their heart see at once that all existence is none other than the work of the God whom they adore… (But to tell others) they have only to look at the smallest things which surround them, and they will see God openly, to give them, as a complete proof of this great and important matter, the course of the moon and planets, and to claim to have concluded the proof with such an argument, is to give them ground for believing that the proofs of our religion are very weak. And I see by reason and experience that nothing is more calculated to arouse their contempt…

This is what Scripture points out to us, when it says in so many places that those who seek God find Him. It is not of that light “like the noonday sun” that this is said. We do not say that those who seek the noonday sun or water in the sea shall find them; and hence the evidence of God must not be of this nature. So it tells us elsewhere: Vere tu es Deus absconditus. (Truly, you are a hidden God.)

[Randy]

I don’t see any problem if God would, like a loving father, let us know that he existed.

However, I love Rich Mullins’ “Playing Hard to Get,” meditation here.

You who live in Heaven,
Hear the prayers of those of us who live on Earth,
Who are afraid of being left by those we love,
Who get hardened in the hurt.
Do you remember when You lived down here,
Where we all scraped,
To find the faith to ask the daily bread?
Did You forget about us
After You had flown away?
Well, I memorized every word You said.

Still, I’m so scared, I’m holding my breath,
While You’re up there, just playing hard to get.

You who live in radiance,
Hear the prayers of those of us who live in skin,
We have a love that’s not as patient as Yours was,
But still we do love now and then.
Did You ever know loneliness,
You ever know need?
Do You remember just how long a night can get?
When You were barely holding on,
Did Your friends fall asleep,
They don’t see the blood that’s running in Your sweat?

Will those who mourn be left uncomforted,
While You’re up there just playing hard to get?

And I know You bore our sorrows,
And I know You feel our pain,
And I know that it would not hurt any less
Even if it could be explained
And I know that I am only lashing out
At the One who loves me most.
And after I have figured this, somehow,
What I really need to know…

Is if You who live in eternity
Hear the prayers of those of us who live in time?
We can’t see what’s ahead,
And we cannot get free from what we’ve left behind.
I’m reeling from these voices that keep screaming in my ears,
All these words of shame and doubt, blame and regret,
I can’t see how You’re leading me,
Unless You’ve led me here,
To where I’m lost enough to let myself be led.

And so You’ve been here all along, I guess.
It’s just Your way, and You are just plain hard to get.

Songwriters: Rich Mullins. For non-commercial use only.

[St.Roymond]

@SkovandOfMitaze

If someone came up to me and said “‘I met a man who turned into a bird and flew away who was a voodoo priest “ I would not believe them. Not because it contradicts my reality, but because it’s simply not true.

Your attitude says otherwise: you ignore evidence presented by saying it’s lies. when the only reason to say it’s lies is it doesn’t fit your personal opinion.

Where I got to church, calling another member a liar is taken very seriously – come to think of it, the scriptures take it seriously as well.

And that’s especially so when the one you really have an issue with is the Holy Spirit essentially asserted the right to decide whether He distributes gifts or not. You make your opinion the rule He has to follow, but meanwhile He keeps using tongues and the Eucharist and other means to communicate and to heal.
And BTW, calling the work of the Spirit “magic” treads seriously close to ignoring a certain warning our Lord gave.