How did the Jews know these were the last days and it was time to go back and establish Israel as a nation, just in time to make Prophecy work? I remember seeing a returning Jew interviewed. She was asked, “Why are you moving to Israel?” She replied, “I can’t explain it. I just have an overwhelming urge!” Not only does The Bible have the Jews returning, but also rebuilding the Temple including the Holy Place where Antichrist will set up his idol, “the abomination causing desolation” (Daniel 9:27, Mark 13:14, Revelation 13:14-15). This “desolation” will be the worst pain and suffering in the history of the Universe past or future! All hell and all heaven will break loose and Earth will look a lot like Mars! But it won’t be a total destruction for God will stop it just before all “life” became extinct (Luke13:20).
While I will agree with you that the regathering/conversion of the Jews is a thing mentioned in Hosea 3:5, Matt. 23:39, Romans 11:1-5, Romans 11:11-12, and Romans 11:25-27. But as a Postmillennialist, I see the gathering/conversion of the Jewish people not brought out by the state of Israel, but by the spreading of the Gospel to the Jewish people and it will be as Jesus said in Matt.23:39, “For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'” Thus, Jesus will not return until the Jewish people, and that the whole world submits to Him and calls upon Him as Lord.
I would argue about the understanding of the abomination of desolation but I will leave it at that. My opinion is that what Jesus spoke of in Mark 13:1-23 has already been fulfilled by 70AD with the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the 2nd temple. But I don’t blame you for holding the view of a future 3rd temple as some early church leaders seemed to have entertained that idea along with the idea I also stated.
Yeah I been there.
I do not see the 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe Rev. 14), turning to Christ until the SEE the pierce-scars on His body: “And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (see also Rev. 19:11-21) I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.” (Zechariah 12:10). Zephaniah said, “For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain.” (Zeph. 3:11). And so with the proud “removed,” and only the humble left to “mourn,” “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:26), and God will have done as He pleased.
The ancient Church has traditionally seen the 144,000 to represent the Church universal and how it is made complete in Jesus Christ.
The prophecy Zechariah gives is very enigmatic and from my studies there is no event in history that seems to have fulfilled this event yet (though some have tried to link Zechariah 12:10 to the crucifixion but I don’t buy it.) so it makes me think it ““may”” be somewhat future in that perhaps a great future war will take place in that Israel will in a great sweep of revival led by the Spirit turn to their Messiah and Lord, thus causing a great conversion to the nations along with them? A lot of the things in the Psalms state that the nations will go to Zion/Jerusalem and seek the Lord God (Psalm 22:27-31, Psalm 72, Psalm 110) But that’s just my speculation of trying to understand these ancient figures and the visions that they had given and were later written down. In truth I claim “ignorance” in the sense of eschatology (though I am well studied in it) and don’t hold any certain view to heart other then the idea that Christ will one day return in glory and power as Matt.25:31 and Acts 1:10-11 state. I have in truth gone through all types of understanding the end times, Premill, Amill, Postmill. Methods of understanding prophecy, Futurist, Historicist, Idealist and Preterist. I don’t hold any of the current views I have in stone as my study in these things tend to make me sway back and forth (and in truth I am on the fence between Postmill and Amill and for all I know I could be a Premill next week lol 
). While all these things are a bore to mess with, my main hope of Christ soon return is thing I will never toss away.
Interesting! I never realized that. It makes sense, given the multiple of 12. Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret that as the sum total of those who do go to heaven, I think. Thanks.
Well, why not!! For a long time now, I’ve been a “Pre-trib partial” believer. Luke 21 talks about the Great Tribulation events and says, “Be on guard, that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.” (Luke 21:34-36). Of course this also means, as Paul taught in Philippians 3, we must do all we can through Christ’s power, to “attain to the resurrection out from the dead” (Philippians 3:11). Of course, Paul didn’t strive for just any resurrection because, he knew everyone who died was going to be resurrected at some point. The only possibility was that he strove to be a part of the first resurrection. This also means that those who don’t strive in Christ’s power, like Paul did, will not be raptured nor be part of the first resurrection if dead. The marriage supper of the Lamb, is a 1,000-year reward for all who, through Christ’s power overcame the world, the flesh and the devil.
Rev 11:8 demands that “the Great City” = 1st century apostate Jerusalem which caused the Crucifixion
“the Great City” is “Babylon” who is destroyed by the Beast at Armageddon (Rev 16-18) = 70 AD
The Beast survives for 10 more “horn rulers” = 10 well-known Christian-persecuting emperors of the Roman empire (Domitian to Diocletian + Julian the Apostate)
The Beast is then conquered by Christ = conversion of pagan empire to Christianity in the 4th century AD
Millennium = 1000-year long Christian Byzantine empire until the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD
Gog & Magog = Modern Era from then & Reformation until today
Very odd understanding, the early church for a long time understood the Harlot of Babylon to be Rome.
Very interesting take on the Historicist view (I suppose it is but I could be wrong so forgive me). When I was Historicist I took the more traditional Protestant view of it but later saw it was nothing but negative anti-Catholic bias put on the Bible by the early Protestants.
Well, that may even be the EO interpretation (“Orthodox Study Bible” states that)
However, there are two separate entities
- Beast with 7 heads = 7 hills = Rome, famous as “the city on seven hills”
- Babylon Harlot = Great City = Rev 11:8 = Jerusalem
Harlot “rides the Beast” in a clear sexual innuendo, utilizing OT imagery, of apostate Israel “whoring” after pagan cults and not staying true to God
She is the antitype to the Virtuous Heavenly Woman (Rev 12) = faithful remnant of Israel from whom came Mary & Jesus
Many people do try to turn the “Babylonian Harlot + Beast” into a single “Centaur” like creature, but it is more like a “horse & rider”
two separate beings depicted
Jerusalem & Rome both participated in the Crucifixion
Jerusalem was more to blame (as Jesus explained to Pilate) and so was destroyed first (70 AD)
Rome who “knew not what it did” was preached to by Saint Peter and eventually converted to Christ in the 4th century AD (so spiritually “conquering” the pagan imperial “beast”)
Please be spiritually careful – don’t let anti-Rome-anism slippery slope you into anti-Saint-Peter-ism, Saint Peter was Jesus’ right-hand Apostle… He was sent to Rome on a mission… Did he fail?
And if Saint Peter failed, who really succeeded?
Greek EO not “forgiving” the trespasses of pagan Rome against pagan Greece, even after they both converted to Christ, and so interpreting (both the Beast and) the Babylonian Harlot as Rome… has not been very forgiving… hence not very Christian?
(I’m sure there’s always more to every story, but that is one legitimate part of this one)
No one should take the name of Saint Peter lightly (says me), supposedly he’s the Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Christ with “all authority over heaven & earth” which would seemingly include the Moon, Mars, the rest of the Solar System & galaxy and so on
While I won’t deny that Peter had an important role to play in the spread of the Christian faith, I hold him equally as Paul and John for example. The Church was in Rome long before Paul or Peter came to it but I’m sure they both strengthened it and set up the strong church body that it would later become no doubt. Peter and all the other apostles were successful in their mission to spread the Gospel as far as they could back then within their own lifetimes, so I would consider it a success.
While no doubt the Harlot Babylon could represent any of the two cities, the Beast, also traditionally seen as the Man of Lawlessness/Antichrist is seen as a single person. The False Prophets is another story in of itself lol. As I have stated earlier
As I have been having these discussions it has been again for the 100th time I bet, made me rethink my view of eschatology and forced to see that I have taken the Postmill view out of an optimistic and neo-liberal hopeful view of the future and thus later today after church I plan to look into the issue with these three things as keys to aid me. 1. Look at Scripture plainly and see what the text itself says. 2. Look at the Jewish contextual environment/interpretation of the time the text were written and see what it meant to them. 3. Look at what the early church had to say on those issues. I feel with these three safe guards I could make a safe guess of what the text are at least trying to say properly as I feel no one can truly see or grasp what writers intended to say about things of prophecy.
To me the Bible in terms of prophecy seems like a pendulum, swaying back and forth between prophecies, some in the far off future (such as Ezekiel, Zechariah, 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-12 and Revelation itself) while some seem to be in the past (their present) in fulfillment as in Joel 2:28-29 and Malachi 3:1 and 4:5-6. And Jesus Olivet Discourse seems to be all over the place to me, past, then future, then past again and then at times He seems to blend the two together. At this point I feel like I’m ranting and need to stop typing so I will cut off here. Peace and God bless.
There’s only one “great city” in revelation, which is “Babylon”, where the lord was crucified…
Which can only mean Jesus Christ being crucified in apostate Jerusalem
The “man of sin” comes in The End Time of gog and Magog after the millennium…
Long after both Babylon and the beast are defeated
In the sense of the context then yes it would make sense that Jerusalem would be “Mystery Babylon”
- Interesting view of the millennium, never really heard of it like that before.
2.So from what I get, the Man of Lawlessness (2nd Thess. 2:3-12) is different from the Beast (Rev. 13)? From what I understand, the Man of Lawlessness and the Beat sound like the same fellow.
Because they’re both similarly inspired by the adversary?
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