Is Genesis 7:11 ("the windows of heaven") figurative or literal?

[johnZ]

@gbrooks9

Is there NO STORY that I can tell you that would find too incredible to believe?

I most likely would not believe any stories you told me… because you would not believe them yourself.

My point in relating that a fish had a big enough mouth, was not to deny the miraculous aspect of the story, it was simply to illustrate the ignorance of those who do not believe the miracle. Whether God use miraculous means, or natural means, or a combination of both, I trust the story more than I trust those who try to discredit it.

Aand I hope that will be my last word on this story.

[Henry (Henry Stoddard)]

A good reply, John. I know you accept the miraculous just as I do. Unfortunately, some people cannot.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@Henry

Again, George, I must repeat that Jonah and the special fish is a story of the miraculous. Why can you not accept the possibility? In any case, have a good day, George.

@Henry,

If Roger can INSIST that God controls the weather, but doesn’t TOUCH chromosomes… if he can INSIST that God can send thunderbolts burning through the atmosphere (perhaps to destroy an evil doer?) - - but would not send one photon to alter a genetic sequence …

Then I think I can have the leeway to think a Bible story that sounds like a parable … IS a parable.

Henry, please have a splendid weekend!

[Henry (Henry Stoddard)]

I consider you and George to be friends; however, I must agree with what you are saying here. However, I do not believe Joseph Priestley and Daniel Whitby would agree with George. Benjamin Franklin even believed in the resurrection of the body even though he was influenced by the enlightenment.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@Eddie

So let’s see. You won’t discuss the New Testament miracles at all; and the Old Testament miracles you discuss, you are willing to accept, provided they are given a naturalistic explanation, i.e., not treated as miracles (in the Humean sense) at all.

Unitarian, Schmunitarian! – this is straight Enlightenment Rationalism. Your position on miracles is no different from that of Voltaire or Hume.

So how then can you be a supporter of BioLogos?

@Eddie, This takes us right back to our first conversations.

I consider myself a THEISTIC EVOLUTIONIST … because I believe in a Cosmic Conscious power … and I believe it was and is involved in the rise of intelligent life in the Universe.

At this point … you will no doubt fight the impulse to tell me that I JUST CANT BE A THEIST unless I’m a Trinitarian… blah blah blah.

I count myself a supporter of BioLogos because I believe in God who guided human evolution.

I dwell on the Old Testament narratives because I think it is easier to show that the unhistorical stories are either parables, unintentionally garbled or INTENTIONALLY garbled.

[Henry (Henry Stoddard)]

Hello George,

I must agree that you have that right. I do not deny that. I feel that God can control weather and other things; however, he created natural laws to do that too. He can intervene whenever he feels necessary. However, most of the time, he uses his laws of nature to control things. Both can exist: the miraculous and the natural. Also, let’s not question George’s loyalty.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@johnZ

Aand I hope that will be my last word on this story.

I hope it’s your last word too …

If you picked up a book by Homer… I’m not too sure I’d be very happy with what you started teaching my Greek children …

[Henry (Henry Stoddard)]

I must agree somewhat with you too; however, I believe that the story is real. It has to do with miracles. In any case, Eddie, have a great weekend. You have given a good answer.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@Eddie

The point is that BioLogos is not just a “theistic” organization, but a Christian one. Its founders and current management affirm the Trinity, the Resurrection and other things, including the truth and inspiration of the entire Bible (not just parts of the Bible).

@Eddie,

You lost me after the second sentence… I’m a Unitarian. I’m a theist. I support the science of Evolution. And I believe God is involved in the evolution of intelligent life. I don’t think there’s is anything else I need to do or be to be a Friend of BioLogos.

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@Eddie

As for the Jonah story, I don’t deny that it could be a didactic tale, not meant historically. But suppose, for the sake of argument, it were meant historically. There is no reason to take “fish” in the modern biological sense. The Bible does not use scientific nomenclature. “Fish” could cover a whole lot. It might, for example, cover whales. I don’t know how big the stomach of a modern blue whale is, but the average size of blue whales appears to have decreased over time; in the 19th century, specimens of 100 feet or more were known, and there could of course have been species of whales that were larger in Jonah’s time. The term “fish” in Jonah It might also cover other now-extinct aquatic creatures, bigger than any whale, or even an aquatic creature specially created by God for the occasion. So we cannot say unequivocally that a man could not be swallowed and fit into the belly of the fish spoken of in Jonah. As for stomach acids, etc., a God who can create matter out of nothing, part the Red Sea, feed 5000 people with 7 pieces of food, and raise a man from the dead, can easily handle details like that.

@Eddie,

Of course … a God of miracles could do ANY of these things. He could make a donkey talk. He could give someone magical hair (Samson). And he could create the Universe in 6 days.

So, Eddie, how is it that you deny your MIRACULOUS GOD the Six Day scenario of Creation? Don’t you take your Bible seriously?

[Henry (Henry Stoddard)]

You are correct.

[Henry (Henry Stoddard)]

I agree. I do not feel there was an ice layer. I must say that that is a new one on me.

[Henry (Henry Stoddard)]

Are you trying to sound Yiddish? Unitarian/Schmunitarian?

[gbrooks9 (George Brooks)]

@Eddie

I’m merely making the point that your views on Biblical miracles are not those of BioLogos or of American evangelical faith generally.

This is why I don’t talk about New Testament events. But challenging the events of the Old Testament is completely different. BioLogos and I fiercely challenge the narratives of a significant part of Genesis… and I touch on other events that are equally fictional.

[fmiddel]

@Eddie

But finally, we have empirical evidence that a man can fit inside the stomach of a great whale, and survive there for longer than three days. Gosh, haven’t you ever watched Pinocchio?