Roger, my friend, I stand corrected. It is true that BioLogos means actually Word of Life, i.e., the Lord Jesus. However, Logos can also mean “study of”. Did the founders of BioLogos mean it both ways. No, I think as you do that they meant it for our Lord Jesus. Oh, it is always a pleasure to hear from you, Roger. You are correct. Great to hear from you.
@gbrooks,
I must say that Mormons are a heretical sect. The canon of the Bible was closed with the Book of Revelation. Remember John’s warning about taking about or adding to this book in the Revelation. The Book of Mormon is not from God. American Indians were not ancient Hebrews; on the contrary, their ancestors came from roughly what is today Siberia, China, and Mongolia. The Book of Mormon was written by a man by the name of Joe Smith. He received no revelation from God; on the contrary, it was a diabolical view. Oh, diabolical comes from a classical language word meaning “devil.”
I think you would also say MY denomination, the Unitarian Universalists, is also a heretical sect. You know the old saying, right?
When the Pilgrim’s original church in Plymouth, Massachusetts went from the “old religion” to Unitarian (as a great many old-style churches in New England also did), the staunch believers walked across the common to found the First Congregational of Plymouth. They would say:
“The Congregationalists kept the Faith, the Unitarians kept the furniture!”
George,
You are jumping to conclusions again.
What does it mean for you to be a Unitarian, rather than a Congregationalist?
What is your relationship to Jesus Christ?
How does an atheist know for sure that God doesn’t exist?
@gbrooks,
I still think you are a great person. A Moslem once came on BioLogos, and I was nice to him. Unitarians are different from Mormons. Unitarians are friendly, and may talk about their beliefs, but they are not there to force their views upon someone. As a Southern Baptist, I will invite someone to church; however, I do not twist arms. The Mormons try to force the Book of Mormon upon people and become angry if you will not accept what they believe. I have a distant cousin in Texas who graduated from the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. Cousin Sally was originally a Southern Baptist; however, she is now a Unitarian. Believe it or not, I am also a distant relation to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. We are descendants of the first king of England, Alfred the Great. My father’s cousin, Professor Alf Mapp, Jr. of Old Dominion University, was also Alfred’s seed and wrote a book entitled “Alfred the Great and His Times: The Golden Dragon.” What is my point? I have quite a few Unitarians in my family too. Most of us, however, are Trinitarians. Remember that the English Baptist Churches in America started in Rhode Island by the Rev. Roger Williams were also Puritans. I do not think the Bible says that you are lost. Romans 10: 12-13 says: For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus will be saved." I am not sure that an understanding of the Lord Jesus’ relationship to God the Father makes a difference. If I am wrong, may God in Jesus forgive me. Early Christians debated this issue as well. It was debated during the time of the Emperor Constantine of Constantinople. I pray that God will lead you down the right path. God bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, in the Book of Acts, did those people who accepted Jesus when Peter was preaching in Jerusalem during pentecost about the Lord understand the relationship between the Father and His Son Jesus? I do not think so. May God lead you down the right path to everlasting life. Perhaps we will talk to each other in the eternal kingdom of God. Always keep your mind open to the possibility of the Trinity. It will not hurt. I do prefer to believe that Jesus was the incarnate eternal Son of God. I hope we are still friends. I have had discussions with professors at Harvard Divinity School. Harvey Box is a liberal Baptist Theologian at Harvard, and he and I get along just fine. Are you a seminary graduate? I am just curious. I hope we are still fellow scholars and friends. I do recommend Cousin Alf’s book to you if you like history. Have a Merry Christmas, George. Oh, my wife and I went to see the James Bond movie today, and I would recommend it to you.
0+0=0. There had to be an eternal mind that brought things into being. That eternal mind must be God. Even Aristotle believed that. Creator + nothing = can call into something existence. Nothing does not have the ability to call something into existence. Can a pencil write on its own? No. It has no mind. Information is needed from a mind to make it work. If I see a pencil writing without any mind in my room, it will get out of there as quickly as possible.
Why?
Why does God have to exist for there to be the universe we observe?
“A Universe From Nothing” by Dr. Lawrence M. Krauss 2012
You need to ask them.
But one way is to define what is real in such a manner so that God does not exist.
If the only reality is defined as physical, then God is not real.
The problem is that one has to make a step of logic to conclude that God created the universe. If one chooses not to take this step, there is no way to compel one to do so.
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@Patrick,@Eddie,@Relates, @gbrooks,
I will state again: How can a mindless nothing created something? Again, I will stand my ground. 0+0=0. That is basic and simple logic. Can a pencil write on its own? No! If it is possible, science can show something coming from nothing; however, science cannot. If you want to prove this, let’s see a human being appear from nothing. No pre-existing substances. It is not logical and you know it. To demonstrate that nothing cannot create something, what caused the universe? What did the little dot that existed before the Big Bang exist in? If science knows all, please answer my questions. You said you did not know. Prove to me the another reality can come from nothing. Give me a satisfactory answer. Oh, a lovely woman just came into existence in my bedroom. Let us not go through this again. Mindness zero can create nothing. Prove to me that it can. Oh, a giant ant has just appeared from nowhere. Prove to me this can definitely happen. A bowl can contain water. What is holding our universe? 0 + 0 is always zero. How can zero make something? Give me an answer that is logical. If there was no eternal time outside of our space-time continuum, in what did the Big Bang take place. Are you going to give me the nothing answer again? 0 + 0=0. That is a mathematical reality. I wonder what makes you an atheist. What has made you reject all possibilities except for atheism? Do not answer just one question; on the contrary, answer them all. Do not tell me my questions are not logical unless you can prove that nothing can create nothing. Let’s see science make something from nothing! You must excuse, but I am listening to a lecture in High German about gravity.
Henry,
Answers to all your questions:
[quote=“Henry, post:74, topic:3557”]
To demonstrate that nothing cannot create something, what caused the universe? Quantum Fluctuations of empty space.
Empty space
Congratulations.
Empty space
zero can’t but zero isn’t anything.
Lack of evidence of God’s existence or presence in the world.
Lifelong reasoning and lifelong study of science. Also watching in horror atrocities being committed in the name of God. All religions can’t be true but all can be false.
@Patrick, @Eddie, @relates,@jahiddle, @TedDavis,@BradKramer, @gbrooks,@jstump,@aleo,@cstump
Where did the empty space come from? That implies room. Empty space implies the existence of space that exists now in our space and time system. Prove to me that nothing can create something. Words and statements are fine; however, you still have not explained how nothing without a mind can create something. You also say there was space (empty) before our time and space were created. What holds the empty space even now? Water will spill if there is not a bowl to hold it. How did the empty space can into being? Also, God did not do the evil things we all see in this world. We do them! Human beings also murdered Jesus. We do the evil ourselves. How did the laws of physics come into being from mindless nothing? 0+0=0. What you are implying is that zero cannot create something, but creation still took place. Explain how. Remember, you said there was nothing. Isn’t that zero?
Claiming that religion, even some particular religion, is true or false is like claiming that Europe is true or false. A religion, even some particular religion, is not a single proposition, but a vast system of propositions plus many other things besides.
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The laws of physics are the inherent properties of the universe. GR and QM is how the universe works.
no empty space is not zero. It is teeming with virtual particles coming into and out of existence.
Also… I think that the Big Bang wasn’t a speck expanding into space, but space itself, or space-time, rather, expanding into existence with matter. There is no emptiness outside space just like there is no ‘before time’.
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@jahiddle ,@Mervin_Bitikofer ,@Patrick,@gbrooks9,@beaglelady,@Brad,@Eddie,@aleo
How can the laws of physics be inherent properties of the universe if there is no ultimate Mind to create? 0+0=0 still applies. If GR and QM are how the universe works, who caused that? We again come to 0+0=0. If no empty space is not zero, then where did the empty space come from? I do not know what Dr. Bitifer’s beliefs are, but I encourage you to respond to him as well, even if he and I might not agree. Again, I will state that 0+0=0. I agree that is no linear time outside outer space; however, I say there is eternity. It could be called the ETERNAL NOW. If there are virtual particles coming into and out of existence from nothing, how is that possible. If you say this, you are saying everything is mindless. However, action of creation requires some type of mindful action just as it does in our reality. Are you implying that we as a part of this universe are constantly going in and out of existence? Even if that were true, what is causing us to come back into existence? There must be an Eternal Mind causing this. Again, no mind means no creation. This is an interesting conversation; however, I believe it is time for this old man to go to bed. I wish some more scientists would join the conversation. I do not mean all atheistic scientist, of course. We could use some Deistic Evolutionist, Theistic Evolutionists, and some pantheists. We not. Let’s make the debate very interesting. Are there any followers of Aristotle out there? I will ask another question. If matter can create itself, why can a pencil not write without an intelligent designer? I believe this particular topic will never be solved in this existence. It is becoming a circular argument. You are not going to yield, and I am not either. Is there anyone who at least agrees with my last question? Albert, do you have anything to say about this? Good night all.
Do you see any weaknesses in my debates under Is evolution God-guided? In my opinion, this has become a circular argument that will have no end. I am a moderate Baptist and Patrick is a rock hard atheist. I do not feel this argument is worth continuing if no one else is willing to join. Have a good evening!
No I am not rock hard. I am a human being, an American with the same intelligence and reasoning ability as you. If you want to discuss the modern understanding of 2015 science, I will engage with you.
Nothing caused GR and QM. GR and QM are inherent properties of the universe.
You continue to quote a factual mathematical equation, yes 0+0=0, I agree with you. Also E=mc^2 is true. Are you debating the truth of E=mc^2 or 0+0=0 for all spacetime?
No, not at all. Our existence is finite, measured between Date of Birth and Date of Death.
Matter can be converted into energy and energy can be converted into matter. Happens all the time. Also the sum of all the energy in the universe is 0.
@Patrick,@Relates,@Eddie,@BradKramer ,@gbrooks
I can only say that this is a circular argument that will lead to nothing. You are an intelligent man and reason should be telling you this too. My equation still is valid. Nothing cannot create something. I will not yield in that concept because it is reality. You say that matter can be converted into energy and energy into matter. I still say that 0+0 =0 applies. There is not matter without a First Cause. Nothing can come from nothing. Notice I am using capital letters for First Cause. Scientists use mathematics to support their theories; therefore, I am only doing the same. 0+0=0 simply means that nothing cannot create something. It is just impossible as I see it. Others see it that way too. Do others consider your view of things? Yes, they do. You are quoting Einstein, and I could be wrong on the next statement. However, I believe he at least considered the possibility of God. C. S. Lewis was a very bitter man who grieved over the death of his mother. It wasn’t until he met J.R.R. Tolkien that Jack Lewis accepted God and called upon the Lord Jesus so that he could be saved (Romans 10). I have absolutely no doubt that Jack Lewis is with Christ in the eternal NOW, and I shall meet that great man one day. Now it is time to close this debate because it is leading nowhere. Perhaps it will make a difference one day, or perhaps not. Time, the four letter word, will tell. To me, evolution is God-guided. That is how I feel and I will continue to feel that way. It is not out of stubbornness; on the contrary, there is something one could call “spiritual” that makes me feel that way. I have seen many things in my lifetime, both great and also terrible things. I have seen death come to people so many times, especially to people whom I loved deeply. Has that shaken my faith? Not at all! My mother left this life December 18, 2006. I was with her. A few days before, I had a meeting with the doctors. They did not have to tell me what was wrong; I knew. Her kidneys had stopped functioning and her stomach was swelling. She could barely breathe, and her heart beat in bed was 147 when it should have been 80. She was heading for a stroke. I told them to remove the equipment, place an oxygen mask on her face, and give her around the clock shots of morphine. They said I had made a wise decision. It ripped my soul into pieces. My mother was a woman of unconditional love. I told her what we were going to do, and she smiled. At her death, my wife and I were with her. There was no pulse, no heart beat, and her brain was dead. She was in a death pose with her mouth opened and her eyes closed. Doctors were there along with the chaplain who was a friend of mine. I told my late mother how much I loved her. Do you know what? Without using her vocal chords or any part of her body, she said: “I love you son.” She spoke to me without using a single part of her body, and I have witnesses to prove it. I am sure you will try to find some explanation in science, but I have a greater explanation. You know what I am implying. I know you will try to deny it in some way. In any case, best wishes. I wish to end this with a quote from the Apostle Paul: I know whom I have believed that he is able to keep that which I have committed until Him against that day. Goodbye
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