Is evolution driven by violence?

Whenever I hear somebody like Ken Ham say things like “God wouldn’t create a evolution in a perfect creation.” and “God wouldn’t use death to produce life.”, I think, “What??? The eternal life we have in Jesus Christ is dependent upon his sacrificial death on the cross. Life from death is exactly what God has chosen to do!” We are “new creations” in Christ and that is yet another creation that is based upon death.

So that is why it has always struck me as bizarre that any Christian would complain “God wouldn’t use death to make something good!”

Incidentally, I also find it strange that Young Earth Creationists like Ken Ham keep saying that the original creation was “perfect”. Even aside from the question of how that “perfect” would be defined, I can’t figure out how Ham et al get from “very good (TOV)” in the Hebrew text of Genesis to “perfect”. Moreover, would a “perfect” creation have a deceitful serpent in it?

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but the whole point is that evolution is anything but selfish as selfishness and violence exist in nature but they are negative selective traits. The one thing you have to look at here is obviously the food chain as those at the bottom provide for the existence of those at the top but that might well be the purpose of your existence, e.g. contribution to the system. Nature thus contains violence but evolution runs based on the law to love thy neighbour

you are right that God creates from death. It is indeed the violence on nature that show us that evolution in following the word of God is the only way. Christ is indeed the example to show how God’s creation works in death. As Christ evolved / was created out of the word of God, his death created an everlasting new life that can be seen in others. If we manage to live in him and he in us we are saved, because to live forever is the art to go and live in every heart.

I wish that Jesus is alive in all of our hearts. It is rare to see him in the eye and I can only offer you a glimpse of it, but those who recognise those eyes will know what Jesu sacrifice really means - and taking the cup and drink from it. God bless her parents.

Oh for goodness sake … I thought you were trying to rope in Theodicy.

So tell me this … how is it that a Creationist god doesn’t inflict death and violence on

  1. innocent infants;
  2. innocent animals;

All these living things are NOT divine … NOT gods… they are imperfect.
There is a HUGE wall separating humanity from the Divine.

Ken Ham and other creationists walk around trash-talking BioLogos …
selling the implication that if it wasn’t for that piece of fruit, there would be
no difference between God and humanity.

Silly stuff really …

George

Your quote made me snicker a bit, because the text says the exact opposite. They BECAME like gods, because of the fruit, knowing good and evil.

I think one of the most frustrating misconceptions (and really, very easily correctable misconceptions), is this bizarre idea to think of the entire world as being the Garden of Eden. The text says nothing of the sort and would make zero sense if God kicked Adam and Eve out of a paradaisical garden out to suffer… A different paradise?

-Tim

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@TimothyHicks, the text says if they then ate of the Tree of Life … THEN they would
be as gods.

I concur with your observation about the OUTSIDE of the Garden being NON-Paradise.
But fictional, figurative stories are not expected to be perfectly sensible and coherent, right?

George

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Genesis 3:22

“And The Lord God, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever:”

The guilt and knowledge of good and evil was because of the fruit they ate… The Tree of Life had only to do with immortality, not the knowledge.

I think that the teaching of a story should still be coherent … Not necessarily every action but what it professes to teach … Yes. If the Bible was full of stories that were not only fictional but taught incomprehensible and incoherent morals, why would we read it?

-Tim

@TimothyHicks

The Revised Standard Version makes it a little more clear:

Then the LORD God said,
“Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil;
and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life,
and eat, and live for ever”

Since humanity now knows “good and evil” - - are we gods? No.

But according to the writer, if Adam had managed to eat of BOTH
trees, he would be “as a God”, yes?

It would seem that eating of either tree, but not both, leaves
humanity less than god like.

George

Genesis never claims that the land outside of the garden (of the Eden region) was paradise. So I don’t understand why you are implying that there is something incoherent in the text. (Or am I misinterpreting your post? I may have.)

However one interprets the garden pericope, it is hardly surprising or “illogical” that life in an already planted and productive garden would be easier (and much more desirable) than trying to survive in the wilderness OUTSIDE of a planted garden reserve. So I’m not sure what you are saying is NOT “sensible and coherent” in the account.

Yes, most American Young Earth Creationists think the entire planet earth was like the “garden in Eden” —but that is tradition, not text. They also think that there was a “second creation” after the fall when weeds and thorns were created but the Biblical text never says that. Instead, just as logic and common sense would suggest, someone who gets kicked out of a well-planted and maintained garden is going to find the surrounding wilderness a harsh place filled with weeds and thorns! That’s what grows when there is no gardener making sure that only desirable plants are growing in the soil.

Of course, it is not so surprising that the general public would assume that if traditional fundamentalist Christians claim the Genesis describes the entire planet in various ways, then surely that is true. Obviously, the Biblical text and what people claim about the Biblical text are not always the same thing. Indeed, Genesis 1-3 has a lot to say about the ERETZ (“land” or “earth, in the sense of soil, the ground, or opposite of sky”) but interpreting ERETZ as “planet earth” as many do is anachronism which not only misunderstands the Hebrew text, it even misunderstands the fact that “earth” in 1611 King James English did NOT demand the modern sense of “planet earth”. Readers of English at that time considered the “primary meaning” of the word EARTH to refer to the opposite of sky, the ground they tilled to grow crops. They didn’t yet have the primary focus on “planet earth” like the English speakers of the 20th century.

The misunderstanding of the Hebrew word ERETZ as “planet earth” instead of “land” is probably the most significant interpretation error of the entire Bible (in modern day society.) Yet, even today (just as in ancient Israel) ERETZ YISRAEL means “Land of Israel” or “Nation of Israel” but NEVER “Planet Israel.” Likewise, imposing “planet earth” on the early chapters of Genesis is anachronistic thinking. Ancient Hebrews had no concept of “Planet Earth”. (Of course, that is why the pericope in Genesis 2 is not a “second creation story of planet earth”. It is a story about a particular ERETZ where God planted a garden. It was a particular ERETZ/“land”/“region” where there was no rain but only water in the form of underground water or mists which could be used by Adam to make up for the lack of rain. That is, on its own the land would produce no crops but with a man placed there on the ERETZ/land to irrigate and maintain the garden God planted, it would be very productive. This is not a story about the entire “planet earth” but a story about the ERETZ/land which people today call “the Garden of Eden” even though it was really just a particular plot of land in there Eden Region where God had planted a garden and placed HA’ADAM (“the human one”) to irrigate and tend it. That is why Genesis 2 is in no way a “contradiction” of Genesis 1. They are two different stories with two different purposes—regardless of whether a particular modern day reader thinks they actually happened in history or not. (Let’s give the ancients credit for having common sense. Does anybody really think that they didn’t notice that Genesis 1 and Genesis told different stories?)

Clearly, from vocabulary and structural evidence, it is obvious that Genesis 1 (and the first verses of Gen 2) as well as rest of Genesis 2 were independent traditions (probably passed down orally until they were written down in what became known to us as the Book of Genesis, the first book of the Torah).

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I’m not exactly sure what a “Creationist god” would be…but the Bible certainly does not claim that death and violence never come upon infants and “innocent animals”. In fact, every “creationist” (Christian fundamentalist in the USA, at least) has noticed that YHWH God in the Bible even ordered violence and death on the infants of the Canaanites when they conquered the land. And King Saul even got in big trouble and was rebuked by Samuel for failing to kill the “innocent animals” but instead kept the animals alive as valuable booty.

So I’m perplexed by your “So tell me this”.

I have NEVER heard any fundamentalist or evangelical Christian make such a claim.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the fact that the serpent in the garden was a liar and deceiver!

I’ve never heard anybody—theologian, creationist, or anyone else—claim that “there would be no difference between God and humanity.” (Piece of fruit or no piece of fruit.)

If that is what someone told you that Ken Ham is claiming (or somebody claiming), they truly are telling you “silly stuff really”. I don’t know where you got those ideas. They certainly don’t come from the Hebrew text of Genesis and I’ve never seen Ken Ham state what you claim. (Yikes! You’ve somehow managed to put me in a position of defending Ken Ham, a major purveyor of “silly stuff”. But in this case, I can’t let him take the fall for something I’ve never seen him claim.)

Do you understand the difference between the text saying what the serpent CLAIMED God said and what God had ACTUALLY said and meant? And “there would be no difference between God and humanity” seems to be coming from your own imagination! (Now, if you were referring to Mormon theology, there humans are told that they can become gods and “As God is, we shall be”…or something like that, cuz it is getting way too late. I must go and get some sleep before I become totally incoherent.)

Exactly … The issue of God and Evil is not something unique to Evolutionist Theists …

My reference to Ken Ham’s ‘silly stuff’ is that somehow the universe would be different, and
humans virtually as gods, if someone hadn’t eaten the fruit.

The trees of life and knowledge are figurative … not real trees.

George

Revised Standard Version? So who revised it and why is it called the standard version?

@Patrick

Dearest Patrick … out of my respect for you, I’ll respond to your post. But initially I
was just going to let it slide.

For the purpose of this thread, it doesn’t matter to me who revised it, and why they
chose the name “Standard”.

If you seriously wonder that such a version exists, I’m sure the Wiki article will help
(see link at bottom).

The point I was making can be made without any additional scripture:

  1. Yahweh said eating the Tree of Knowledge made humans “like us” in knowing good and evil - -
    that’s in reference to having moral knowledge (though obviously still nowhere like God’s?),
    not in any other aspect, right?

  2. Neither Adam, nor Eve, nor any of their descendants became Gods of any sort, right?

  3. To become “as Gods” in all the important aspects, apparently the writer feels that
    eating from BOTH trees would accomplish this.

I suppose an interesting question would be, would humans have qualified as Angels
if they had eaten from the Tree of Life and NOT from the Tree of Knowledge?

George

Thanks, I was confused as everyone seems to quote a different version of the Bible to make their point of interpretation. Question: Do the Catholics use the RSV?

@Patrick

Catholics have their own “adaptation” of this Revised Bible:

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition - Wikipedia

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George, I think you misunderstood what I mean by “like gods”. The definition of the term is given in the text itself. The serpent said, “you will be as gods knowing good and evil.” … Later on The Lord God says, “Behold they became like one of us to know good and evil.”

The only way they became “like gods” is that they knew good and evil … Not “god like” in the sense of immortality, omnipotence or supernatural power. Whether you believe they were figuritive trees or real trees I don’t think it changes the essential teaching. Adam and Eve lost their access to immortality, they became “like gods” in that they knew good and evil and experienced what it was like to disobey and feel guilty about it… They felt “naked” and hid their shame, behind a free, and covered themselves up with fig leaves. What they didn’t know however was that they would lose their access to the Tree of Life by disobedience.

-Tim

@TimothyHicks

The problem I have with your assessment is …
did Adam and Eve become Gods? Or did they become AS Gods in terms
of their Moral knowledge? Either you are reading too much into the text …
or someone was quoted speaking an untruth.

Immortality is by far the prime attribute of deity … not whether they know
good or evil.

George Brooks

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No, I’m not saying they became gods, but simply “as gods”. It’s the same thing for being created in the “image of God”… It doesn’t mean that God physically looks like a human.

-Tim

considering that we were made to be like God to begin with, e.g. in his image, the likeness was already in existence. The truth behind the fall is clearly the the rejection over the authority over the self, e.g. the issue of puberty. The realization of the self allows you to experience evil as that working against the self. At the same time it also allows you to realize good and evil as in to manifest good and evil as you are not under the instruction of the greater self any more but can now act for or against it. After all the story was written to be understood by “primitive man” who still understood the poetic language. It is just difficult for the “brights” who are bound to the materialistic interpretation of a text not to see them eating apples and hear snakes talking. Perhaps the writers of the story did not anticipate how primitive man would become :frowning:

I agree that it uses heavily metaphorical language, and talking about, “the origin of clothes, people eating fruit, a talking snake,” is to miss the point of the narrative.

Still I don’t insist that it necessarily has to be talking about puberty … Or even that that it was only purpose; their could have been multiple messages going on in it. There’s a prophecy in Gen. 3:15 … And the fact God provides food and clothing to His creation could also be a polemic against the pagans that felt the need to offer food and clothing to the gods, because they thought it was necessary, and in turn would receive diving blessings.

It also has other common themes such as an exile (which gets repeated in The story of Cain, the Babylonian Exile, and is alluded to in other places like Abraham inheriting the Promised Land, and Moses too, but only conditions that they don’t break the covenant).

The only thing I’ve had a hard time understanding, for the most part, was Eve being made out of Adam’s rib (or side? the text is ambiguous).

-Tim