Inter-connectedness Of All Life

Faith & Science Conversation
62

Patrick, there’s no way I can really respond to you without getting off topic here (it will probably develop into a completely different thread).

But in any case I agree with you. Any individual person can find meaning and purpose that fits with that particular person. A person can theoretically spend the majority of his life in a closet and believe that his life is very meaningful and purposeful. Just as much as a person who studies mathematics and science, getting degrees and understanding, and believe that his life has great meaning. The same can be said about a person who wants to rid the world of redheads — to that person it’s his purpose. It’s all incredibly subjective.

Where I think you and I would disagree is that meaning and purpose (according to you) ONLY exist in the EYE of the BEHOLDER and no where else. And I disagree. It could be that your meaning conflicts with my meaning, or that your purpose could conflict my purpose — who is to be the judge in all this?

It seems that your solution is simply to leave people in their own little groups and not try to convert anyone to maybe seeing things differently. Other people want to harmonize on the things that they agree on. These are all great and civil … Except that they all seem to agree on (in different degrees of extent) a more relativistic worldview.

It seems to me that the way people see things are very shortsighted. I can ask a friend to meet me at the bank at six o’clock in the evening tomorrow night. That friend could reply, “Why?” I could tell that same friend, “Don’t worry about it. Just trust me.” And my friend would say, “Look here. If I’m gonna be taking time out of my day to meet you at some bank I gotta know the reason why I’m doing it.”

And his point would be valid.

However if I ask that same friend, “What is the overall purpose of your life as a whole?” Then he won’t give the same reaction. He will bend over backwards, trying as best he can, not to answer my question directly.

It seems to me very odd how we, as humans, require ample reason to fill up two hours of our day, but when it comes to our entire life, we avoid answering the question like the plague. We are very good at filling our time with distractions upon distractions so we don’t have to answer it … And we can just push that dilemma deeper and deeper down with more “stuff” so we don’t have to think about it.

Until inevitably great thinkers stop the distractions, put the world on hold, and say, “Wait a minute. What am I doing here? Why is this thing I’m doing so important?”

In any case, it’s some things to think about.

-Tim

1 Like
63

[quote=“Patrick, post:58, topic:3245”]
I want to give testament that you can living a moral and ethical life with purpose and meaning without any supernatural beliefs whatsoever. [/quote]

@Patrick,

Ulltimately, you don’t seem to have much interest in defending “God-guided Evolution” - - because you don’t
teach the existence of God.

I suspect you will do more harm than good on the BioLogos fora.

Sincerely,

George Brooks

64

Really, what harm can I do?

65

@Patrick,

If you don’t point out the various ways and options for how a Christian can see
GOD being involved in evolution, you are simply trying to convince Evangelicals
to stop believing in God altogether.

George Brooks

66

@Patrick
@gbrooks9

I think that everyone is allowed on the site (even those I vehemently disagree with). George, in a more ultimate sense, is right in recognizing the purposes behind BioLogos. It’s a message to Christians who believe that evolution and their faith are incompatible, and to become more of a “bridge” so to speak.

But if BioLogos also calls itself a ministry than it’s only natural to let dialogue take place between the believing and the un-believing (if BioLogos is Christian shouldn’t furthering the Kingdom of God be part of it’s objective?) — course one can also look at the flipsyde of the issue and say that athei… (Sorry “nones”) are pulling Christians AWAY from their faith.

But ultimately that can happen anywhere… In the theater, in an alley, at a store. It’s just the reality of what we have to deal with — spiritual warfare and all that.

I don’t personally find Patrick very aggressive in the Dawkins-like fashion (but of course people can change views because of subtlety just as much as by vehemence and force). I think it’s up to the moderators to decide who is doing the harm.

-Tim

1 Like
67

@TimothyHicks
@Patrick
@gbrooks9

Timothy and George, you raise some good questions for Patrick regarding the purposes for things both here and now in this forum as well as about life generally. I recently found two youtube videos by one Fr. Robert Barron, a Catholic priest who articulates quite well a Christian (not just Catholic) response to some of these questions. I would be curious as to the reactions that any/all three of you would have to this and then this video. Altogether they are only fifteen minutes worth of viewing in which Barron speaks of the Hitchens brothers – both of them! Come back here with what you think. While I am not a Catholic, I do find Barron to have very well informed opinions. And by the way, in case you are wondering about his position on Genesis, he also speaks to that among his prolific youtube appearances. Listening to him, in my experience, is always time well-spent whether or not you are Catholic, Christian, or even religious at all.

68

Tim, I see your point.

George Brooks

69

Not really, I am not trying to convince Evangelicals much of anything. I do, where I can, try to explain the science to anyone. But I am not very good at that, so I just try to point out scientific inaccuracies and let the person research the details, if they are interested.

70

Thanks Tim.

As for the moderator, Brad, he censors me quite well and quite often. He won’t let me harm any of you. :smiling_imp:

71

Generally speaking … I find it aggravating when pro-Evolutionists refuse to discuss how God can guide evolution. And it sends a confusing message to the readers …

… they start to lose track of what is the official position of BioLogos.

George Brooks

72

me too. :grinning:

73

So you are aggravated by your own posts, @Patrick?

Can you date a single post where you explained how God can guide evolution?

74

@gbrooks9

Patrick doesn’t even believe in God. At all. So it goes without saying that you are even less likely (and apparently that is really saying something!) to get answers out of him about how God works on anything.

Some of the rest of us may have some thoughts about it, but probably not ones that any of you will find satisfying.

2 Likes
75

@Mervin_Bitikofer

So what you are saying is that most of the pro-evolution posters on these pages are Atheists?

That’s just great …

1 Like
76

To clarify, I am somewhat annoyed by TE and ID proponents who claim God (or ID) guided evolution and then don’t explain how it is done or could be done. Nor do they give examples of when it was done in the past.

I, on the other hand, can’t figure out how a Quantum Mechanical system like DNA mutations can be TE (or ID) guided. Neither can I explain how chaotic systems like weather can be TE (or ID) guided.

77

So what you are saying is that most of the pro-evolution posters on these pages are Atheists?

Not at all. Just saying there is even less point in asking an atheist how God works in the world than there is in asking stubbornly silent theistic evolutionists.

1 Like
78

@Patrick

There’s any number of ways … depending on one’s religious preferences. I
find the most generic explanation is that God can send a cosmic ray into
parts of DNA at a specific time.

George Brooks

79

sure, that will work.

Does God do this very often? When was the last time He did it? Does He direct the cosmic ray at specific people to give them skin cancer? How about DNA Mutations causing childhood cancer? Is that God guided?

80

@Patrick

Now see, Patrick? Here you are on a BioLogos page trying to argue AGAINST God.
I hardly think this was the intent of the founders.

The intricacies of hypotheses about God have a lot to do with individual Denominations.
ALL religions have problems with Theodicy.

Arguing against God-led Evolution on the grounds of Theodicy is rather duplicitous in
motivation if you ask me. Evolution isn’t the problem here … GOD is your issue.

George

81

@gbrooks9
@Patrick

I don’t know if it’s particularly helpful to insert God into specific circumstances where God directly acted. It’s a somewhat annoying habit that I think both Christians and Atheists have adapted — to quote Isaiah, Gods thoughts are not our thoughts, not are His ways our ways. We can’t know “how” God acts in nature, all we can postulate is that he “does” in some shape or form, act in it. This probably isn’t a scientifically satisfying answer, I imagine. From what I gather on people’s stories, Gods interaction is much more subtle … Communicating to people who are willing to open their hearts and minds and receive Him.

Many times God communicates to people in very unlikely situations … During drunken episodes or other. I felt that God communicated to me while having a discourse with a gay couple who weren’t religious — what they were saying made me realize that I needed to get closer to God.

How is that for ironic?

-Tim