"I'm not interpreting it, I'm just reading it!"

How does viewing this passage as poetry or parable bring down the credibility of all of the other poetry and parables in the Bible?

One of the boldest statements I’ve ever heard in my life. Breathtaking in its hubris.

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@Benkirk, @Jay313
The Bible is also typically pretty clear about what is a parable. Genesis just does not, clearly at least, fit into that category. Furthermore, God references the 6 literal day creation in other parts of scripture as well. So, I am not the “one true judge of what is meant to be taken literally and what is not,” but, as @Casper_Hesp says (probably about other matters), such deceit as God saying (and repeating) that he created the world in 6 literal days (and then repeating it) does not fit with God’s character as revealed in the Bible. However, I found that statement rather amusing, since it is somewhat self-defeating. Why do you think it is prideful to put faith in what God says in his word?

This brings to mind a traditional quote from Martin Luther:

"Unless you can show me through scripture, and sound reasoning where I am wrong, I cannot and will not recant anything. Here I stand. God help me, Amen.

If you can show me, from the scriptures, where I am wrong, I will gladly purge my YEC views from the internet at large myself!

The name of one of the characters is “Man”. Literally.

The main characters live in a magical garden with magical trees that impart eternal life and knowledge.

A woman is tempted by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

The characters of the story are kicked out of the magical garden, which is now guarded by a magical being with a magical sword.

If this doesn’t scream PARABLE, then I don’t know what would.

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@T_aquaticus
Your retelling of it would be highly amusing if it was not demeaning (of the account) enough to be disturbing. I would strongly suggest that one read the actual account, and then determine if it is a parable or not. @T_aquaticus, this is hardly a refutation, sorry to say.

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LOL!! The retelling was amusing and completely accurate. Whether the account is a “parable” or not, I don’t know. I think not, since “parable” is a somewhat well-defined term that is (as I understand it) different from “myth” or “fable” or “hilariously mutated made-up fireside story.” And how exactly the retelling of story can be “demeaning” is beyond me.

I have. Many times. And it doesn’t read like any other historical account in the OT. In fact the first 11 chapters don’t read like the history in Kings for example. I am not sure I would call it a parable but it is definitely not straight history.

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What is demeaning about it? Myths and parables have long been a way that humans communicate deeper truths. When an account has talking snakes, characters that are super obvious archetypes (Adam means “Man”), and fruits that impart eternal life it is pretty obvious that it is a myth. [quote=“J.E.S, post:214, topic:36407”]
I would strongly suggest that one read the actual account, and then determine if it is a parable or not.
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I have read it, many times. It reads perfectly as a parable.

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@BradKramer can move this to the other thread, if he wishes.

Since this is the statement in question, it deserves repeating. You are not putting faith in the word of God, you are equating your interpretation and the word of God. To put it plainly, your equation is: “My Interpretation = the Word of God.”

Should I show you, from Scripture and through sound reasoning, why such a statement is prideful beyond belief?

Fine. I will play along. Let’s try a thought experiment. Suppose, just for a minute, that I was able to show you through Scripture and sound reasoning, that you were wrong in your YEC beliefs. After deleting all of your Internet presence, you might not abandon your faith, in which case you would have to come to a new understanding of Genesis 1-11.

Is your new understanding also the word of God? Does this mean the word of God is subject to change, like our fallible human understandings? Is it possible to change your understanding of Genesis at all, if you equate your interpretation to the very word of God?

Your interpretation is fallible, just like mine and everyone else’s. If you cannot see this, if you think you speak with the very authority of God himself whenever you open your mouth to expound the Scriptures, then I cannot help you.

Edit: Forgot the Scripture! The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever. Is. 40:8

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The Word of God says if your hand causes you to sin, you should cut it off. That’s what it says. We have to figure out what it means. It is not demeaning to the word of God to take into consideration the context and Jesus’ communicative intent in that verse when we try to figure out what it means. Maybe somebody thinks it means we should literally mutilate ourselves to avoid temptation and claims that is the Word of God. I would argue that is not the best interpretation. Same with Genesis. Yes, it says the heavens and earth and everything in them were created in six days. That is what is says. But what it means is more complicated and debatable. It’s not demeaning to Scripture to take into consideration the context and the communicative intent as we figure out what that passage is supposed to mean for us.

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The biggest two presuppositions are these: First, that Genesis is intended to communicate “eyewitness” information about the duration and method of God’s creation. Second, that information is communicated in such a way that one-to-one correspondences can be made between terms in Genesis and modern scientific concepts.

These two presuppositions control the way a person reads the text. It is no surprise that people find exactly what their presuppositions demand they find.

I want to return to the historical angle, because I think it’s vital. The history of conversation about Genesis and science can be summed up as this: Genesis is a theological masterpiece but a terrible scientific text. The theology of Genesis—that the universe is the free and good creation of an omnipotent and wise God—has had a massive impact on the development of the modern world, and particularly the rise of modern science. But every single time people have tried to use Genesis as a guide to science, it has failed. Every. Single. Time. So perhaps the lesson is that Genesis was not intended to give us that sort of information? Perhaps its depiction of creation is meant to communicate a different sort of truth than just a literal chronology of events? Perhaps its our own presuppositions which need to be adjusted?

This book has been extremely helpful for me: Amazon.com. Written by two professors at a conservative Bible college.

Sure, it can be understood in different ways. That’s the point. But lots of people in church history have thought the most “natural” reading is of a solid dome that separates the “waters above” from “waters below.” This also makes the most sense in the cultural context in which Genesis was written. More on that here: http://biologos.org/blogs/archive/the-firmament-of-genesis-1-is-solid-but-that’s-not-the-point

The firmament/expanse question has been debated here on the Forum at great length, so I’m not going to beat the dead horse any more than this. Here’s the biggest thread:

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Could you repeat what you’ve said in these other posts here please, or at the very least link to them? I ask this not just for myself but for the benefit of anyone else who stumbles on this thread.

@jammycakes
Certainly. In the book of Exodus, God Himself says that He created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day (in reference to working 6 days and resting on the seventh). Also, after the creation days, it says “and there was evening and there was morning on the # day.”

More on this later, but I would like to reemphasize one thing (on this thread for anyone who stumbles upon it):

I am not so close-minded as to say I can’t be wrong. If any of you can prove to me through scripture and sound reasoning that I am wrong in my YEC beliefs, then I will delete my posts myself. So, this is what it has come to but in a good way). Let us use scripture to interpret scripture, and see if/where it says that the days in Genesis are not literal days.
@jpm
@Christy
@BradKramer

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How exactly would you use Scripture to show Jesus doesn’t want you to cut your hand off, even though he told you to?

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The actual account was written in Hebrew. Have you read it in Hebrew?

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Then lead the way and use scripture to interpret the scripture regarding the firmament and the origin of rain.

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@J.E.S

Hello James,

I actually agree with you that scripture does not allow an interpretation of the days in Genesis 1 as anything other than 24-hour periods of time. There is more than evidence than the 2 passages in Exodus, and I’ll produce if should anyone like. Then we have 2 choices for the genre of the passage. Either it is literal history or tradition/myth. What’s not allowed is concordance.

Richard

How would evening and morning be determined prior to the existence of the sun, moon, and stars (day 4)?

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I would like to hear your other verses, @Richard_Wright1 (by the way, the name’s Jonathan ;))

That is a very interesting question, @cwhenderson, one that I have been pondering lately. Interestingly, Genesis 1 implies (as God first created light, and called the light day and the darkness night) that the time span of a day is set by God, and he created the sun and the heavenly bodies to mark it.

There are some thoughts on this in this other new thread, if you’re interested: Teaching Genesis Creation at U of Montana this fall - #4 by mtp1032