If vaccine is God's gift, is Covid-19 divine punishment?

[KZiemian (Kamil Ziemian)]

@Klax

His relationship with the OT is one of arrogation, whether He was God incarnate or not: taking and claiming without immediate justification from the text.

Can you explain that? Because I see no sens in this words, not with my knowledge of OT. For me it is akin to Islam claim that Jesus was a Muslim and teach Islam, only latter his message was corrupted by saint Paul and similar people. But, is this more than wishful thinking?

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

The OT has nothing to do with Him. He has everything to do with it. Even if He was God incarnate. He projected Himself back on to the OT, on to post-Exilic Second Temple Messianism. After projecting it on to Himself. It is entirely wishful thinking to suggest otherwise as there is nothing overtly supernatural about the OT. The OT doesn’t prove Jesus and He doesn’t prove it. Which does NOT mean that He wasn’t God incarnate. It means that if He was and He believed what He was saying, He was right for the wrong reason.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@KZiemian

@beaglelady

Back in the day people blamed Jews for the plague, even though Jews also got the plague. This type of sick thinking has deep roots.

I once hard that during Black Death pope declared “Jews have nothing to do with plague, because there is plague in England and there are no Jews there”. Here is my source .

This is not sick thinking as such, this is just Biblical faith. It can be abused, but what can’t be abused? Probably nothing in this fallen world.

What is just Biblical faith here? The pope’s logic?

[beaglelady]

@KZiemian

Because they are humans, fallen creatures and Satan is working, Christian do bad things. Moreover, we all, you and me, do bad things, often with feeling of moral superiority.

But this argument is also unsound and probably no one can live according with these reasoning. If something was abused and lead to bad action, we need to reject it. Fine, but this mean we need to reject everything in the world.

Medicine form the time to Alexandria when they sections of living slaves (according to sources left by historians from this period) to this day, make truly evil things. Today due to development of medicine we have organ harvesting. By this kind of reasoning we should reject medicine or even more specific transplantation?

I’m don’t want to be rude, but at the same time, I so often see very selective using of some principle, to reject only the views that we see as unpleasant, that I’m very tired of it and can’t find to much energy to discuss all inconsistencies of all such viewpoints. If you say that we should reject A because it lead to bad consequences, this implies that we should reject medicine, which probably no sane person will do. For such reason this argument can be taken serious only if it is spoken by person that reject modern medicine. I’m sorry, but I can’t find energy to care to much and I can’t see a reasons why I should take seriously such opinions.

If you think such implication doesn’t hold I’m open to listening.

It’s true that they blamed the plague on Jews. This is not an argument, just a fact.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

And interesting article by Roger Olson:

Let's Talk about COVID-19 Theologically

In it he discusses our “bondage to decay” as related to how he sees the fall due to sin.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

That’s a shame. I like old Roger.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

I assume you are referring to his view of “the fall” but think while he perhaps does not reject it wholeheartedly like you, his view is more nuanced than many. In any case, his urging pastors and leaders to do the right thing in regard to Covid and his attitude towards science and faith is encouraging.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

Aye. The Fall is the problem. I’ve always rated old Roger. But you can’t have everything. Well you can, but only beyond him : )