If it all be possible, let this cup pass from me

This is where your error comes in:

Scripture is very unclear on this. Mark and John present us with diametrically opposite views as I argued above and reprint below.

Mark 14:32: 32 They went to a place called Gethsemane; and he said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be distressed and agitated. 34 And he said to them, “I am deeply grieved, even to death; remain here, and keep awake.” 35 And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 He said, “Abba,[a] Father, for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me; yet, not what I want, but what you want.” 37 He came and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep awake one hour? 38 Keep awake and pray that you may not come into the time of trial;[b] the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 39 And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words.

Of course Jesus was scared, nervous and had doubts. This account couldn’t make that anymore plainer. And if Jesus did possess knowledge of his divine purpose and plan, the only explicable reason here for his behavior is doubt and the fear that it brings. If Jesus knew with absolute certainty he would be in Heaven playing harps at the right hand of the Father right afterwards, why on earth is he so distraught Then follow this up with the psalm of lamentation and sense of abandonment on the cross:

34 At three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Luke 22 which is dependent on Mark’s narrative:

and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43 [[a]Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground].

Also notice how Luke, though he used Mark for most of his gospel and passion narrative, removes the line “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” from his own account. John also would not dare to record this which was probably blasphemous in his eyes.

Not for one second do I believe God had to turn away from Jesus because he somehow “became sin.” That is about as cogent as a round square is to me. How on earth is sin even defined in that sense? I always thought sin was not a thing or a being but a state of the will that is contrary to God’s own. This is a human man who felt a connection to God stronger than anyone else in history, in his darkest moment of despair on the cross. Despite his intense fear, doubt and anxiety (sweat like drops of blood) he went willingly to this fate.

Matthew 26, dependent on Mark, has the same general idea:

My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Jesus literally asked that the cup be taken from him. How on earth is any other exegesis remotely possible here? As noted, Matthew repeats the saying from Mark on the cross about God forsaking Jesus.

John has none of this in chapter 18 with Gethsemane. It is heresy to him. In fact, he flatly rejects this notion that Jesus could have said or done this. Instead in verse 11 he says shall I not drink the cup the Father has poured for me? Which is ultimately what he did in the other three accounts as well. But in John 12 Jesus wouldn’t dare ask that the cup be taken from him: “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour." John literally scoffs at Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane.

I repeat these from above
[1] In Mark Jesus --greatly disturbed-- asks that the cup be taken away. In John (12:27) Jesus literally scoffs at the heretical notion of asking that the cup be taken from him.

[2] In Mark Jesus is seized or captured and the disciples run . In John Jesus lets the soldiers accompany him to his glorification and lets his disciples go free.

[3] In Mark it is Jesus who is prostrate on the ground praying before meeting his captors. In John it is the arresting party (a detachment of soldiers, their commander and Jewish leaders) who all fall to the ground when Jesus identifies himself.

[4] In Mark, Pilate interrogates Jesus. In John, one might get the impression Jesus is interrogating Pilate.

[5] In Mark, a painfully human Jesus is granted assistance carrying his cross. In John, the serenely transcendental and always-in-charge-Jesus requires no assistance at fulfilling the cup the father poured for him.

[6] In Mark Jesus is offered a drink while crying out on the cross My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? In John after Jesus realizes knowing all is finished and so that scripture could be fulfilled he says I am thirsty and someone brings him a drink.

[7] In Mark, Jesus lets out a loud cry and breaths his last breath. In John, knowing that all is fulfilled, Jesus chooses to give up his spirit. In John not only do the arresting party and Pilate have no power over Jesus, death itself does not have any power over Jesus.

You are simply elevating the portrayal of John over that of Mark. This is done mainly because some of us don’t want a Jesus who could have such doubts. We demand a Jesus who was always certain and decisive. We demand a superhuman Jesus. I apologize if I am heinously “imputing motives” as @Jay313 has said but this is normal when we are faced with competing scriptures. We all have to pick one side. But on historical grounds, which portrayal of Jesus is more likely to have been a post-easter theological development? The one where Jesus is omniscient and omnipotent and never falters for a second, or the one where Jesus appears human, with doubts, falling on the ground in despair? Which “version” of Jesus is the historical one is all too obvious.

Second, a temptation story where Jesus is decisive doesn’t mean he can’t later have doubts. A story of him impressing Jewish religious leaders at 12 and knowing the temple is his Fathers house (in a special sense for him) also does not in anyway exclude this. We also have no idea how condensed (a word apologists love when dealing with errors) that narrative in the desert/wilderness is. It says Jesus was there for 40 days. We have no idea how extensive any doubts or temptations he may have had actually were. We have a 2 minute conversation out of 40 days. But to be honest, I don’t see that story as being well evidence historically. The details as we have them seems to mirror Israel in the desert for 40 years. I agree with you that the wilderness story is about temptation over doubt though. But having a strong sense of self understanding doesn’t mean in the ebb and flow of life, especially when about to be seized and probably torturously killed, one cannot despair.

Doubts are not sin, doubts are not evil. They are a normal part of human life as is uncertainty about the future. Jesus doesn’t know the day or hour, or who touched his robe, this is not omniscience.

Now I can see a point for fundamentalists. If you believe in every single miracle of Jesus and every single thing the gospel authors narrated, after all he said and did (controlling the weather, walking on water, raising the dead, his parents telling him o his virgin birth, him having conversations with Satan in the desert, him feeding thousands with a few fish and miraculously healing probably hundreds or more people, if not thousands of them, it seems odd for such a man to have doubts in the garden. Still, death can do strange things to people but this is of course the problem of inerrancy. We get inconsistent portraits of Jesus and in the end, most people end up choosing one that ends up reflecting their own desires and beliefs. This is the build a Jesus where you sweep away or harmonize evidence contrary to your views. Maybe I am guilty if this too, Maybe I want the suffering servant, the Jesus who is all too human with doubts and anxiety. But I think historical exegesis is clearly on my side. The Jesus of John on this matter is far more likely to have been a post-Easter theological development than the one we see in Mark about 40 years after Jesus’ death.

Vinnie

That is like me saying, “of course you are lying,” and it is like you attributing what Dale said to “hyping” and “rejecting.” You are attributing motives which are not evident in what is said. The text says he was deeply grieved not that he was scared or had doubts let alone about what you claim. And I don’t see any hyping and rejecting in what Dale has said either. You may actually believe this stuff regardless of the lack of scriptural evidence for it, so there is no call for me to say you are lying. It is not right to attribute feelings and motivations to others who are present in the discussion. They can speak to such things themselves if there is any truth to them whatsoever.

Not in the text. I don’t see any such link as you are imagining here. I only see the link to Psalm 22, which he is quoting and where a similar situation is described with people mocking with comments of how if God cares and is real then let God rescue Him. That connection looks far more solid to me than yours which depends entirely on the feelings which you are adding to the text.

And that goes for the rest of the things you try to read into the more sparse description of events in Mark. I mean we get it. You don’t want to take anything in the gospel of John seriously and instead want to write another gospel which follows this interpolation of your imagination back from John through Mark to a gospel according to Vinnie where Jesus is just an average joe trembling in fear and doubt because that is a Jesus which makes you feel most comfortable.

Fine. If that is what winds your clock then good for you. But in my case the very idea has me ordering Hindu scriptures from the library to see if there is anything of substance to the Hindu attitude that Christians are nothing but a bunch of religious amateurs. The religion I see you inventing, with such a low view of both humanity and Jesus, is incapable of inspiring anything great from anybody. In fact, the only purpose I see it serving is adding weight to the atheist argument that religion is nothing but a crutch of comfort for people who are as frightened by the challenge of life as they are frightened by the annihilation of death.

tl;dr the whole thing.
 

That is simply presumption. He dreaded the anticipated imminent rift. “Distressed” is an apt descriptor that need not envelop any of your terms.
 

It couldn’t be any more plain that sorrow and agony of soul can be overwhelming and do not need to include them, either.
 
And fear can be sinful.

I am reminded of that movie, “The Last Temptation of Christ,” from 1988, which has a confrontation between a very human Jesus and the apostle Paul. Paul is basically telling the human Jesus that he is irrelevant because the Jesus of the gospels is the one that people actually need. I found this highly amusing at the time (I was in seminary), for the way it embodied the conflict between the various understandings of Jesus. Obviously I would be sympathetic to the case Paul makes in the movie, but of course, I believe the Jesus of the gospels is the real one.

As history clearly tells us, it is the view of Jesus based on John’s Gospel that was invented. Superhero Jesus is an invention of pious Christian theologians. As I said before, the humanity of Jesus has ultimately been lost to the church which only pays it lip-service when convenient. Mark’s portrayal is the more historical of the two given its “embarrassing” nature to Christians like the author of John.

Vinnie

History may tell you that it was invented, but that does not make that view true.

What anticipated imminent rift? God separated from himself? God couldn’t look upon himself?

Why did he dread anything knowing full well he would be in heaven right after? Why dread what was your entire purpose? Why ask God to remove your need to die for the sins of the world if that is why you came and you know it? There is more to the story than just thinking about the upcoming pain. I see it as softening the details of the narrative.

Vinnie

I couldn’t make myself anymore plainer than I did earlier.

Shalom.

I presented the argument. Mark and John present two radically different versions of Jesus. Feel free to dialogue with it, or not.

Vinnie

Or not.  

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Fair enough! Enjoy your day!

@Dale @Daniel_Fisher

I think the dialogue is a good one, as I liked that movie, “The Last Temptation of Christ.” Just because I disagree doesn’t mean these are not questions worth asking and things not worth thinking about.

What I have learned is that the spectrum of belief about Jesus is a little wider than I was previously aware of. And while I do not support the ideas of a super-human Jesus, neither do I support the idea of an average-joe Jesus. It makes me more sympathetic with all the theological troubles over Christology in the early Christian church, for I can see how much effect it has on the inspiration of those who choose to devote themselves to serving Christ.

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I think it is sinful for a Christian (or uneducated of them).

Dying may be distinctly uncomfortable, but I look forward to crossing the ‘little river’ of Jordon.

Yes, to live is Christ and to die is gain. I don’t disagree with that. I do disagree with your assessment of anxiety and doubt over death. If one lets that fear own them and control their lives then I would agree but that’s an extreme case.

If I thought faith was based on intellectual certainty I would agree with you. I don’t have unassailable intellectual certainty though. If you have that, count your blessings. For me there is room for genuine doubt in life.

Vinnie

What is the most frequent mandate in scripture?
 

I have no doubt who my biological father was. I have no doubt who my heavenly Father is.

That is great for you. I’m a little jealous. I wish I had absolute certainty. I don’t.

I’m trained in science. I doubt everything. More excessively than others. But I have friends in the same boat as me. We are not all built the same in this way. Paul had his thorn, I have several of my own and I’d guess you have yours as well.

And there are levels of certainty in this area as well. You may fee certain of God’s love but are you certain all your doctrine and theology is true? I hope not.

I certainly don’t think my faith is blind or not intellectually justified but absolute, unquestioning certainty is a bridge built too far for me and a lot of others. Doubt is a healthy and natural part of being a human.

I don’t think God really cares to be honest. If He wanted to play tricks and absolutely prove Himself to me I assume He could. He doesn’t and it doesn’t really matter. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

Vinnie

I’m sorry. It’s available. The disciples in the boat on Galilee while Jesus was sleeping should have known better. We are to have childlike faith.
 

So am I. But empirical evidence can be had. Are you familiar with Maggie’s testimony? Do you think she has lingering doubts? We are to have childlike faith.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Hebrews 11:6

 

Speaking of boats. :grin:
 

Maybe that is a platitude? What did Jesus say to the disciples after they woke him? He didn’t only rebuke the wind and the waves. We are to have childlike faith.
 

What?! That is an oxymoron and an intrinsic contradiction, to say it redundantly. You might check this out: Why there is no proof of God. What do you think the reward(s) mentioned in the verse cited above might be?

I would not be disparaging of God’s providence, calling instances “tricks” – is that what you want to call what he did for Maggie? It matters.

Ah. I see what you did there. :grin:
Lets eat Grandma.

Yes, childlike trust in God. Not child-like belief he exists. I have the former but denounce the latter. Your reference to the disciples is meaningless to me. If I saw a man walking on water and still the weather I’d have more intellectual faith. It actually takes a good amount of intellectual faith and “child-like belief” to accept the historicity of those stories. They aren’t a point to argue * from*, they are a point to argue for.

A few points:

Evidence of something and proof for it are very different things. In the lack of proof, there is room for doubt. Scientists don’t even presume to fully understand the nature of gravity or why it happens despite all that evidence. Science never settles an issue definitively.

Childlike trust in God yes, Absolute certainty in the factuality of my beliefs is not to be had.

Am I supposed to believe God exists like a child believes Santa Claus is real? Surely you don’t mean this.

Maggie’s story was strong and powerful and I don’t doubt it was real for her but it can easily
be deconstructed.

My background in science tells me the mere fact that it’s based upon human testimony and interpretation of a sensual experience decades ago during a traumatic period in a person’s life that can’t replicated or externally corroborated tells me it’s a low form of evidence. Our memories are not nearly as certain as we would like to think they are. We often read things back into our experiences. We have no way of knowing in most cases.

In terms of proving something, personal experience is the weakest form of evidence there is. I’m sure Allah has appeared to millions of people convinced he was real as have ghosts, big foot, ufos and all manner of strange phenomenon. Think of suicide cults and all sorts snake handlers and so on. People truly can believe just about anything and be convinced it’s true. One only need only pit mutually exclusive religious testimony against itself to cast doubt on it and consider it part of the human imagination.

Also, several of her five highly improbably things occurring are also solved by the one thing (the nurse hit three of them from what I remember). The other two were solved by her spmtwneously deciding to drove down a different road. Not to mention for every story like hers we might find 100 that ends with a person starving under a bridge homeless.

I don’t doubt the validity of her experience. But I don’t proclaim it as it as Gospel and irrefutable proof God exists.

I never commented on them, as far as recall, because it’s not my business to critique other people’s call stories or personal experiences with God. I will comment, however, if you advocate it as public proof of God’s existence. You have mentioned that conversion story here so many times it’s almost as if you think it single-handed settled the issue of whether God exists or not for all people for all time. If you think that sort of evidence is supposed to render all doubt impossible, our science training has been very different.

I thought it was an evil generation that requires a sign? And calling them tricks was a sign of respect for God’s Providence. I don’t expect him to stop what he’s doing and come down here and fix my doubts. He’s not a cosmic vending machine that I can demand things from or a dog that will give me paw at my command. We are the dog.

Vinnie