If it all be possible, let this cup pass from me

Faith & Science Conversation
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If Jesus is 100% average-joe human with character flaws, weaknesses, and afraid of failure, then do we really have any reason to believe everything He says? After all to err is human, is it not? Isn’t such a Jesus likely to be wrong half the time like most of us and so we can pick and choose which of the things He taught that we don’t want to believe. So it is no problem that Jesus taught eternal conscious torment, when you think universalism is more reasonable, because we can just say that Jesus got that part wrong. In fact maybe He even told lies – that is pretty universally human too right?

Of course, I personally don’t believe any of that as you can see in the OP. I just don’t have that low of a view of either humanity or Jesus. Human beings are capable of extra-ordinary courage, idealism, and self-sacrifice – even without hesitation. And most of the history of Christianity Jesus has inspired this because He represented the highest ideals. But this is not so comfortable for middle class entitlement… so people prefer a Jesus which is more like them just as they now apparently prefer elected officials with more mediocre abilities – as someone they can relate to better. I don’t know… seems like self-worship to me.

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That was a joke.

I appreciate your perspective, but I wasn’t angry or prideful. Just before the bit that you quoted, I said,

@Dale and I may go back and forth, but I respect his point of view even when I disagree with it. Thanks for the word of caution, though. We’re all susceptible to prideful attitudes.

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I was aware of that. I was just using your comment as a segue to make a point in general. My apologies, as it wasn’t necessarily directed towards you.

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I would say my faith istn’ based in believing what Jesus said or does/did. My faith is in God, and I believe Jesus just happened to be the means with which God decided He wanted to atone for our sins. The truths that God foreshadows in the OT about Jesus is what I believe in. I guess I would be saved much like how Jacob or Abraham or David is “saved”. Not this after the fact of believing in events that occurred, but more believing God is just and merciful and loving and will always provide for us. Jesus just kind of fits that narrative and ultimately fulfills and reconciles all the the OT in Himself.

Yes, to believe that it is necessary to lie to attain a goal, and that your goal is more important than God’s will of telling the truth, so lying is in basic form making oneself out to be God therefore sinning…no, I don’t believe Jesus lied…or sinned. I do believe He made mistakes, and it is very possible that the writers of what He did made mistakes. But the truth doesn’t change.

If the gospel writeers didn’t believe in His power and truth and wanted to exaggerate and make up stories like the water being turned into wine or any of the miracles were embellished. That wouldn’t change the truth of who God is. That He loves us, He wants to fix us, to help correct that sin problem we have, and the only way is to trust in His strength and not our own. This was all true before Jesus even came to Earth! And it will always be true!

We were created by God and everything we have and do is because of Him so He deserves all credit for all the good we do. If we do anything bad, it is of course not His will, which some could say is unfair He takes credit for the good and not the bad. But as long as you are dependent on Him, you aren’t going to suffer for those bad things that you claim are not your fault. Basically as Paul says, “should we continue to sin to let grace abound?” Of course not. IF you are saved and transformed by the truth of God, you desire to honor Him will all you have, with His help. So the bad you still might do might not be imputed against you, but the whole idea is that you don’t want to do bad.

This is all true thousands of years before Jesus came. Jesus is just/only (and I use the term just/only very loosely) the means with which God decides to save us. It is a beautiful demonstration of atonement, love, mercy, and an example for how we are to live that came to a crescendo on the cross. The fact that it ties everything together about the speakings of God in the OT gives me enough credibility regardless of potential discovered errors or not that came from the writers of the NT or Jesus Himself.

Nor would I say I have a lowely view of Jesus by any means. I just don’t believe we are to attempt or desire to achieve what He achieved. I don’t desire perfection, I desire the utilize the methods He used that for Him resulted in perfection. But all I can do it what God’s will of me is to the best of my ability. So I believe Jesus 100% wants nothing more for/of us than to follow in his methods. This is that He wants us to honor God in everything, ask for help from God in everything, and thank God in everything, and in that we will love our neighbors. Which all of that follows the 2 most important commandments.

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Neither are mine.

But I am a Trinitarian evangelical Christian, where Jesus is God not just a tool of God. And where Jesus is/was 100% human and 100% God, which is possible because these are compatible. They are compatible because God can impose limitations on Himself and human beings are capable of divine goodness.

In my case, Jesus is the lens through which OT and NT should be understood – not visa versa.

Making mistakes is part of how we learn. That is not sin. Sin are the self-destructive habits such as those preventing us from learning from our mistakes.

not exactly… we need to trust in His ability to change us. But there is no heaven unless we change for sin will bring the seeds of hell with us wherever we may go. “Therefore you must be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Glory to God alone, indeed! But this isn’t always helpful – it can be taken too far. God has praises for people when they do good. I wouldn’t put one iota of the work of salvation on any human shoulders – that is too much for any human being to bear (not to mention giving too big a head). But a failure to recognize goodness when we see it is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Just because God inspires all goodness doesn’t mean we should not praise those who are inspired to do good.

Who would? Same with scriptures But it is ultimately relative and thus we can take an objective step back and judge that some have a higher view and some have a lower view… of Jesus as they do of scripture.

But when people use the 100% human as a reason to say Jesus would pray that would not have to save mankind… that is a far lower view of both humanity and Jesus than I can believe in. And I see a great deal of danger in this idea that God just wants obedience. I don’t think that is what God wants at all. The dream and hop of God we see expressed in the Bible over and over is a people who have the law of God written on their hearts, doing what is right because it is right and not just to curry favor with a God of power.

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Change just needs to be in the heart. You just need to try. In seeing us try, God reaches down to us and saves us.

Trying is such a loaded word. Like Paul speaks of running the race…a marathon. If you spring your hardest in the first few miles. You pass out or potentially die and don’t finish. But you pace your self. So in trying your hardest, it isn’t exactly trying your hardest, but it is…

But we are also told to live as if we could die tomorrow, and are told to sprint and God will give us strength to sprint a Marathon. But a sprinter wouldn’t need to be a good steward of future finances either.

Plenty of contradictory commands…

I have come to the conclusion of just trying my best and trusting in God. If that means I am sent to he’ll, I am content in that. My hearts desire is the will of God to be done. If I keep sinning and He sends be to he’ll for it, be He be glorified in that.

However I know God knows we are dust. Knows we need Him, and if we trust in Him, He will take care of us.

So I think the realization or revelation of this desire to honor God and that we were created to do that. THAT is salvation. The eyes of the blind opened.

I don’t need to worry about seeds being carried anywhere. They were all atoned for by God through Jesus. If you desire to rid yourself of all seeds of sin before you can be worthy to stand before God, good luck… But even if you could if you would claim it was from your own will and strength? I can’t imagine you would want to be in heaven where all acknowledge all glory belongs to God.

I do think Jesus was a tool of God in the sense that everything is a “tool” of God and everything incarnate is for His glory. But I prefer the term “fully” God and “fully” man. But I think I agree with you there.

I am only saying the truth that Jesus was, was always, even before He came incarnate to Earth. His journey and crucifixion was in mind when the Israelites were instructed on sacrifice and atonement. Because God wanted Him to do what He would do is why things were the way they were in the OT.

I guess we are diametrically opposed on this one.

I mean, even Jesus didn’t want to take credit and said “There is none good but One, that is, God”

Yes Jesus did allow man to praise Him a few times. But I think that is only to validate that He is God. But Jesus was never upset nor rebuked anyone if He did a miracle and they praised God for it.

Are you familiar with the Isaiah 64:6? What is a rag’s purpose? To clean something up. But if a rag is filthy, it cannot serve its purpose. We have a purpose, everything God created has a purpose, and that is to glorify Him in doing what God designed it to do. If you are a star you burn gas and emit light and heat and gravity, if you are a fish, you swim ect. As humans, we do good things THAT glorify Him. If you were to give to the poor and tend to the needy, but give God no credit for it, it was pointless and useless. You might feel a bit better, that person might be physically or emotionally better off. I guess if they know if came from God they will be better off spiritually as they can thank God. But if they don’t, then it was a waste of time.

We die, those we help die and cease to be, we have no legacy. Even the ‘greats’ like the Caesars and Pharaohs in Kings of old, will eventually be forgotten and turned back into dust. God is eternal. So everything we do to glorify Him is eternal. And since we were created to glorify God, when we do that, we benefit and so does the person we helped. Jesus did heal peoples physical, psychological, and emotional needs, but the main thing He addressed was the spiritual needs. His whole creation was to use our gifts and blessings to benefit the physical and emotional needs which in turn also benefits our spiritual. If there is no God in the equation, then it is pointless to do, meaningless, chasing the wind ala Ecclesiastes.

God even allows things that hurt our emotional, physical, and psychological welfare, but it can be used to help our spiritual welfare. Because these very things can grow our spiritual welfare. They can bring us closer to God, remind us that He is all we need (ala Paul) and only He can fill that hole of despair inside us. If a little (or a lot) of pain is needed to see the light, it is more than worth it. Gold thrown in fire is refined and made better.

Did Michael Jordan get as good as he did of his own will or strength? NO! He had coaches, other players he learned from, and even a supportive dad and the physical ability to even walk. Who gave him that ability? Is he better than everyone else? Is he better than a 5’6” person? What about those who don’t have dad’s or financial means, or the health to practice? He did work hard, but who gave him that drive to work hard? It all comes from God and it is to be used for his glory. And if you don’t give him the praise for that, it was a wasted gift and benefits no one, it’s pointless.

If you have a trillion dollars and you give a man 1 million, and he used it well and makes 50 billion for it. Are you impressed by him, is he better than you? If he gave that much or less to another, but that person was thankful and gave you credit for it, would you not prefer that person? So why do a good deed? Can you really impress God? Or is it to make you feel better? Or is it to help another who will eventually die anyway? You do it to praise God.

So I would greatly disagree with you that statement.

I don’t really think we should solely praise man ever. With the slight exception that in praising another brother in Christ, that can uplift and encourage which is good (but that isn’t solely man, but with God). But that is only if you both know where the ultimate praise belongs. Like Paul would praise some of the churches for doing good things in the name of Jesus.

I am with you there. I would never suggest to do a good deed to curry favor with God. I am saying you do good to honor Him. He blessed us with all kids of gifts and we are to use them to bring Him glory and benefit others. There are no strings attached, there is no anything expected in return. I can’t imagine what I said that would lead you to perceive i believed in currying favor.

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