Stephen Jay Gould and I would agree:
But how does God intervene to get the required result? It seems to me like a god of the gaps argument
In the Bible, God is said to act through seemingly random processes.
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Not quite the same thing is it? By a country mile. Is there anything in nature, not an amazing ancient humanist story, that becomes absolutely meaningful, teleological because of theology? Apart from all of it if it is grounded by God?
It is the same thing. A roll of the dice is widely viewed as random, is it not?
I see where that is coming from and the thought did cross my mind but I donât think itâs the case
The thing is though arguments can be used in two ways, it can be used to support an idea or they can be used to show flaws in an other argument. Whilst the first can show coherency the second is the only one which gets us closer to the truth. In science theories are disproven not proven. For example Darwin presented arguments that demonstrated the coherency of his idea but what put evolution as truth is the failure to disprove it which is not something any of the competing theories have succeed in doing.
The argument Iâm presenting is not God intervenes in the world through random processes. Maybe he does maybe he doesnât. Itâs attacking the idea that randomness leaves no place for God.
Whatâs that got to do with theology? Whatâs the theological basis for claiming that God is behind random events? What kind of God does that? And leaves no trace? Why is such a God necessary?
The sailors cast lots (i.e. rolled dice), and they found theological meaning in the results. When the lots pointed to Jonah they correctly surmised that God was speaking to them through the roll of the dice.
Aye. And what are we 2800 years later than when the story, written at least 400 years later, is set to theologically conclude? About the God we know in and through Christ? Are we to conclude that He undetectably acts behind random and deterministic phenomena to make the outcome what He wants even though it doesnât look like it because Jonah?
I almost hate to respond here since @T_aquaticus is doing such a good job (and I certainly donât want this to interrupt your string of responses, T, if you have more forthcoming!) I just think it humorous that you [Klax] are trying to corner T (an atheist) into defending some notion of how God could possibly be behind ârandom stuffâ. And make no mistake - it seems that T is giving very able answers - probably more so than most Christians could. But heâs hardly the one with the responsibility to defend it, Klax. Again though; may it continue if he has more to say.
I do want to add in this, though: Iâm pretty sure Hebrew scribes up and down the centuries would have been scratching their heads in amused puzzlement at this modern proclivity to turn Jonah into a discourse about determinism, predestination, providence, and how that all interfaces with what we call chance. Shoot ⌠itâs not even about miracles or people surviving inside fish (the other favorite thing moderns want it to be about). Itâs a story about how Godâs chosen people relate to others who have not been part of that chosen âin-groupâ. To make it a meditation on anything else would be like trying to turn to Job to learn about tornadoes, or turning a parable about faith into a discourse on the botany of relative seed sizes. Itâs an unfortunate, and very modern fundamentalist habit of trying to pretend the bible teaches all sorts of fantastic stuff that the bible most certainly does not teach.
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Gravity was explained by Newton as mutual attraction⌠We did not know that gravity was caused by time and space curved by mass until Einstein explained this.
Darwin talked about the concept of natural selection, but failed to adequately explain how it works. Survival of the fittest has not been verified as the basis of natural selection, unless someone has kept
it a secret.
Yes, I have. If I am mistaken, then it should be easy for you to prove me wrong.
Evolution is about change. Variation is about the change of genes within a genome. Since genes are very complex entities and are constructed so they can change, there are several ways that this can happen that really do not involve the laws of physics per se.
However exposure to radiation can produce mutations, almost always negative, and radiation is based on physics.
Mendel, the founder of the science of genetics, demonstrated that inheritance is random. There is no argument there. However time is a part of nature and it is not random, nor is math. Some aspects of nature are random, such the movement of individual molecules based on heat energy and variation, while others like time and the movement of planets are not.
I am glad that you said that âmetaphysical randomnessâ is unproveable. I agree, but I would say that it is unproveable because it is false.
If the universe is a product of random chance, then it is a chaos, not a cosmos. But the universe is not a chaos, but a cosmos as all of science demonstrates except maybe evolution according to Dawkins. Therefore the universe is not the product of random chance, but intelligent choice.
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We used to say that birds flew south (in the northern hemisphere) to avoid the cold and snow of winter. Then evolutionists said that birds could not think so we had to say that birds flew south in the fall to gain an âevolutionary advantage.â
The evolutionary advantage of course was to avoid the snow and cold of winter. Do evolutionists think that animals do not know the difference between summer and winter and cannot figure out how to avoid the latter?
Evolution is not random, but determined by how biota adapt to their ecological niches. God created diversity by making sure our planet has an increasing number of diverse ecological niches. God created humans by giving us the ability to think and rewarding intelligence by making it an evolutionary advantage when we used it properly.
A tree us known by its fruit. A good tree produces good fruit. A random universe produces random fruit, which are inedible. A good universe is symbiotic, which produces life for all.
Spot on on the actual theology of Jonah, Mervin.
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Agree, Jonah is a metaphor for Israel for the most part, and can be applied to the church as well now. One thing that strikes me is the image of Jonah taking a nap while the storm rages around him when on the ship.
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Wow. Another sign of the Prophet Jonah.
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That is not true. When we study nature to learn how nature works, we find that nature has a purpose. It is interesting that Darwin discovered natural selection by observing how farmers used âartificialâ selection to improve their crops and live stock.
He concluded that nature must act similarly and it does, however not
in the way Darwin proposed in the survival of the fittest, or the fitter if you prefer. In the time of empire building Darwin was overly influenced by conflict, rather than cooperation, in its power to shape history.
There are several factors that contributed to the persistence of this misunderstanding including the absence of a viable scientific alternative to survival of the fittest until the rise of the contemporary ecological movement. However, I see the basic reason is the power of a convenient ideology over an inconvenient truth.
This is not probability. The Bible says that God will reward those who are Godâs people in that they act morally responsible. We also believe that history will reward those who do not act selfishly. There is no probability in that.
What is not clear how this works out in this world. We know moral goodness does not always translate to riches, but I think that it does translate to be fuller and more rewarding life. Life is much more than the physical.
The Big Bang could be called a random event, because it could not be predicted, but the results were not random. The climate change that cause the dinosaurs to be come extinct might be called random, but the results that led to our world are not.
Usually random means without cause. Sadly quantum physics has been interpreted to mean that there is no clear cause and effect in this world. That is not true, but that does not halt the spread of misinformation.
Science is within God, because God is the Author of nature. Nature is not simple. It is not purely One, or determinate, as philosophers once thought, nor is nature purely Many as many scientists think. Nature is both One and the Many as the doctrine of the Trinity suggests.
Jesus does not intervene in Godâs Creation, Jesus is the Logos of God and the Logos of the Creation.
Why is it that no one, not even Christians seem to accept that Jesus is the Logos, the Rational Purpose of God?
The problem is not whether God knows the outcome. If I aim a pistol at someone and pull the trigger, and the billet kills the person, the question is whether that is a random event? As I understand the scientific thinking, it is a random event if the result cannot be predicted with 100% reliability. So if I am a good shot, it is not random, but since I am a poor shot it is.
The question is not predictability, but continuity. I do not know what exactly what tomorrow might bring, but do know that tomorrow will come. And even when there is a surprise, and we have experienced many over the past 5 years, we know from experience that is not a complete one, but a continuation of something unnoticed before.
Is there continuity in evolution? Definitely. That is why we are able to put all species on a chart showing the relationships between them.
However it is quite true that where were definite disruptions in this continuity, caused by radical changes in the environment. The question is Were these changes random in the sense of being haphazard, and unplanned or Were they part of a rational process that produced rational beings through evolution?
There evidence indicates the latter.
We study science to understand how nature works. We find that nature works because it follows rational laws, not because it is made up of atoms and molecules. That is the reductionist myth.
The rational laws of nature and morality reveal the purposes God and nature per the Logos.
Science and Christianity agree that all events have causes. This does not mean that all events are determined, but that we live in a rational universe where we can exercise our ability to choose based on our ability to understand ourselves, our world, and God. When scirnce limitsour understanding only to our world, it does a great disservice.
Actually this is a very good example. Where the bullet will go is a truly random event since you are a bad shot but their is an other event that would appear random if the observer is unaware of your existence or that you are an unobservable entity. The fact a gun was their and it fired, from the observers perspective their would be no observable cause, no way of predicting. If the observer was then to compare both event he would conclude that both are random in reality but you missing was random but you deciding to fire the gun is not. what you know is irrelevant, for science the only thing that is relevant is what the observer knows.
Not sure that is a good example of randomness. If a bad shot, you still have a defined chance of hitting the target. If you shoot enough times, you are pretty certain one shot will hit. Sort of like P values in scientific studies.