I don't KNOW God?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Thanks for your kindness in reply Sir. Where I am is as simple as this: an agnostic towards scientific explanations of the formulation of the universe that need billions of years and evolution to undergird their ideas, and more trusting of a baseline of precepts in the Word of God that in plain language gives information that suggests God as Creator and who is wholly beyond our wildest imaginations when it comes to the creation of something out of nothing. This definitively gives me more faith in the views from the young earth creationist camp than the theistic evolution camp, hands down.

God asked Job and his friends, “where were you when I created the …” Many in the science community seem pretty overly confident about what occurred billions of years ago as if they were there… yet theistic evolutionists seem to be tempted to borrow from these shaky theorists anyway. Why is this? I have read too much research on all ends of the spectrum and I just don’t see why one would be tempted to go the direction of evolution. Really? humans evolved from apes or some other sub species through a process of the brutality of natural selection? It is almost antithetical from the ideas that God just created us and calls His creation “good”

I have mentioned this before: if it were popular to believe in a creationist perspective today and dollars flowed into colleges and universities in support of this baseline creationist view, I will place a bet that science in that time would be articulating scientific conclusions that support this view more and which would suggest that molecules to man evolution over billions of years was unscientific.

At the end of our days, I believe we are going to find a theologian who abides in more of a plain reading of the Scriptures on the top of the mountain of truth as to where we come from. I am not interested to make a living on this premise thereby starting a website or parachurch so I am not going to tend to become Papa Bear if one confronts my and my wife and kids’ livelihood when they attack this supposition which runs my group and helps pay the bills. But I love our Lord and sense sadness in Him when we see such leaps away from plain Scriptural premise that define God well towards other ideas strange and foreign from the simple truths and precepts which God was trying to communicate and for us to trust in.

Thanks for listening.

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Thanks Christy: first, faith is not a subjective thing. It is based on objective terms. There is not strong and weak faith as much as correct and incorrect. You have a faith that believes that God is a God who created the way many more of the mainstream scientists believe. I have a faith that God created out of nothing plants and animals in accordance to their kinds and that the world is stained by sin and is still has an evil spirit called satan who is running things. So from this standpoint I have cautiously recognized that mainstream science as it is much more bolstered by the world will tend to push against the ideas of God as Creator who will demand morality and allegiance. From this, secular Science needs evolution and articulates its view by fitting their findings into this mold. I have seen numerous pieces of evidence that support this idea so don’t call me a strawman etc. I for one will not borrow from them to fit in and their is not enough science in the world to support evolution the way theistic evolutionists perceive it.

Secondly, I just don’t buy it that we as Christians need to be more accepting of the viewpoints from the world that I believe evolution has been the main player of bolstering. This is called the seeker philosophy. I have a friend who told me that if it weren’t for the seeker movement, the church would be dead in America. I told him that I see the opposite. I see the seeker church that appeals to mainstream science and appeals to secular psychological terms killing the church and secularizing society and deceiving goats to believe that they are sheep. The more seeker churches there have been in this nation, the less and less attendees in any church setting across this land. This idea is directly related to this subject I wholeheartedly believe too!

I equate this to how to raise children. A couple of decades ago even Christian child psychologists were suggesting loving kids was appealing to their whims-it could be called the seeker mentality for raising children. …Now today, we are finding that these kids have become young adults who are today’s narcissists who are anti God, anything goes, sex, drugs and rock n roll. I believe Chip Ingram has a series about this if you would want to take a listen.

With our kids, we give them boundaries where they “get it good” when they cross those and we love them, love them, love them with kickball, games, lake vacations, fun, church, bible reading etc. When I mess up as their father where I go out of bounds from precepts in God’s Word, I confess my sin to them and to God and tell them that Daddy needs forgiven too! And would you know it, our kids are pretty great to be around to the glory of God and His gospel. The same is with God towards His children: He establishes boundaries such as Him as Creator and other precepts that are plain, cut and dry in His Word. From this we find nowhere that God is some distant celestial clock maker putting into motion billions of years ago evolution with a spotty interjection. He is perfect and rational and all knowing. We are not and are incapable of truly determining how things came to be in our studies which is humbling and with this, we are more likely in recognition of the need for a Savior.

I don’t question your salvation. That is God’s category. I question a faith system that bases itself upon items way far outside of the realm of the plain reading of Scripture that many bring dangerous curveballs of deception to the masses and that can confuse human kind about their true need for a Savior. Take it for what it is worth. I have nothing to gain from this conversation minus joy in bringing it.

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Greg, I appreciate you stopping by to comment. My concern that human kind can be confused and turn away from God is actually not different from yours, though the reasons for the turn is often the false dichotomy presented when the scripture is seen in conflict with the created world, and rejection of the former follows, when the issue is pushed. There have been multiple stories to that effect printed on this site. How do you feel and what do you think of that issue?

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Hi Christy: I tried to read that blog. It was irritatingly intellectual sounding. I think it was Einstein who said if you can’t explain something to a child, then chances are you don’t understand it yourself. God is God. We are His Children. We are called to accept His simple terms with a childlike accepting faith. Overly intelligent sounding gobitygook about so and so who was smart who believed such and such and the historical deviant etc sound not like childlike faith. It sounds more like showing off my research and intellect myself. Sorry. Remember Jesus comments towards his disciples about children in the gospels which is the base idea about what faith is? Faith is not strong with great inner ability to exert energy towards some idea. Faith is strong when, even if it is small, believes what is correct and true. Children do this much better than adults.

And we are not called to rationally convince people to believe in the gospel by appealing to their intelligence. We are called to share a gospel about a God who is all together beyond, better, smarter and mysterious in many dimensions who is willing to forgive those who humble themselves with repentance from self reliance upon intelligence and from disobedience to God. It is God who opens this door in the first place and all that we are called to do is bring the simple message and God will do the rest.

I am very sorry to sound so disagreeable. I like some of Keller’s books. I have bought many to give to friends. But they were simple. I can read some of his material and still strongly disagree with the premise of theistic evolution which I believe we are going to see most of the good churches across the world push against. And I believe the church will thrive as a result with God choosing to act with power.
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Those with beliefs like mine are trying to “appease” others? For me that’s not the case. Nor is it for others on this site I am sure.

I hold the position I do because of what science has revealed. I also dislike when improper motivations are assigned all because of someone else’s incorrect views. I don’t like false dichotomys either.

People can disagree with me. The biggest peeve is someone asserting I don’t have faith when they know nothing about me. I believe in miracles and have experienced them in my life.

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I could not disagree more. Where do you get this idea? Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see. Certainty is not something that is correct or incorrect, it is something that can be measured in degrees of strength. Faith is repeatedly referred to in terms of strong and weak in Scripture. (Luke 22:32, Acts 16:5, Rom 4:19, Rom 14:1-2, Rom 15, Col 2:71 Thes 3:2, ) I can’t think of a single reference to correct or incorrect faith. You can put your faith in the wrong things, but assuming we are all putting our faith in Jesus and his death and resurrection, the object of our faith is “correct” and this is a moot point.

Evolution is not a possible object of faith. God the Creator is the object of my faith. His method of creation is not something I “put my faith in” any more than I “put my faith” in gravity. Neither God’s method of creation, nor gravity have any saving power.

Science doesn’t push against the ideas of God. People do. Science is neutral and cannot speak to supernatural realities.

This is just you repeating your wrongheaded impression though. It’s not an objective fact no matter how many times you say it is.

What do you mean by “the world”? When the Bible talks about “the world” in a negative sense, it is talking about the sinful systems and power structures of human society. How does a biological theory of descent with modification contribute to the sinful power structures of human society? The theory is neutral. If some atheists want to bolster and justify their atheism by making reference to evolution, that is their perogative, just like it is a Christian’s perogative to bolster their worldview by making reference to fine tuning. Fine tuning isn’t Christian any more than evolution is atheist. They are both neutral observations which can be appropriated for people’s agendas.

Is that what you think I believe? It isn’t even close, nor does it represent the views of most Christians on this site.

Again, who is putting their faith in evolution? Not me. I accept evolution as a fact, just like I accept the lunar landing as a fact. But I know my “belief” in these things (and a bazillion other things I believe are factually true) do nothing for me spiritually. It is completely wrong to say my faith is based on anything other than Jesus’ work on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. That is the only thing I am trusting in for salvation. So I don’t really understand your concern.

Is that a veiled insult? The blog wasn’t written for children.

It doesn’t sound like faith, because it isn’t faith, it’s knowledge. We are supposed to love God with all our hearts, minds, and strength. It would follow that those who have particularly strong minds have more intense work to do in order to love God with all of what they have. There is no biblical mandate to go around speaking and thinking like children and refusing to learn.

It sounds to me like you should go read Aesop’s fable about the fox and the grapes. It’s perfectly fine to say, “It was over my head and not interesting to me” but it’s pretty uncharitable to judge the heart of the author just because you didn’t understand it. It also strikes me as a bit arrogant that you keep repeating things as if they are facts (Science’s goal is to push God out of everything) and when someone says you are wrong and offers you a chance to learn something that might challenge the misinformation you obviously accept, you dismiss it out of hand as gobbeltygook.The least you could do is admit maybe you don’t know enough to make the judgments you have been making and just say you don’t care. It’s fine not to care. It just makes it hard to convince someone who does to change their mind and agree with you.

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@grog,

Please do not think I am throwing rocks at you, but I am criticizing you for throwing rocks at others because they understand the Bible differently from the way you do.

On the other hand you are certainly right about Bishop Long. If he really did not have faith in Jesus, despite his words to the contrary, he is not saved. Fortunately God knows his heart and judges rightly, not you and me.

The fact is Jesus is the Savior because He is God and died for our sins. The Bible is holy because it tells the story of Jesus, not Jesus is God because His story is in the Bible.

I am saved if and when I accept Jesus as my Savior. I am not saved if I believe in the Bible, which did not die for my sins. I am not saved if I believe that God created the Universe in 6 days or that Adam and Eve were “real” people.

I expect if you asked him Bishop Long would have said that the Bible is the Word of God, so he is not a good example. The problem is the Bible does not say the Bible is the Word of God, so if you really believe in the Bible, you cannot truthfully say the Bible is the Word of God, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is not the Bible.

Faith is not believing in the Bible, but loving God with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength.

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Thanks to all those who are vouching for me.

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Hi Mr. Sawtelle: So the Bible is a compilation of authors and will not necessarily identify itself over and over in a direct way to be “the Word of God” However, God amazingly inspired individuals over the centuries to come to agreement on this compilation of books and letters to indeed be God’s Word and this compilation has been scrutinized and has held water for centuries. Anyone today who claims differently, is on a limb. That is the basis upon which the number of cults have formed over the centuries.

Do I have questions about creation and about Noah’s Ark? Of course I do. But in this Bible are reports of a God who is greater than people more than the expanding universe thousands if not millions of light years long is larger than the little space my chair sits upon right now. Read that one again. So when I see things difficult in my finite mind in the Scriptures, I must, with Biblically minded goggles on say, “these things are not difficult for that God!” And that God must thereby absolutely obliterate my pride, and increases my acknowledgement of my sinful tendency to make much of myself thus making the goodnews of salvation indeed very very good!

So I think you are missing my point about the gospel. The gospel is about Jesus and Jesus can be many things to many people. For the health wealth circuit that Bishop Long was part, Jesus would be more of a santa claus. Wrong Jesus. For many seeker churches, Jesus is seen as a platform from which one can live their best life now and that makes much of self and little of Him. Wrong Jesus. If those false jesus’s are the ones who folks trusted in, my hunch sins have not been forgiven because those do not exist. And you are right-Eddie Long claimed to believe the Bible but based on his actions and attitudes protruding from his words, I must conclude that he absolutely did not believe the Bible.

Listen to this verse in 1Cor 15, the famous gospel rendition: 1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain.

So Paul says here that indeed Jesus dies for sins, but it must be the correct Jesus as defined by the word preached to the church at the time and as recorded in the Bible. The correct Jesus can only be so when we hear correctly who that Jesus is with our ears from one who speaks about the correct Jesus. There were false teachers all over the place just after the death of Christ preaching the wrong Jesus and this is the main reason we have all of these letters by Paul and the apostles-letters of correction and edification.

Although I believe Jesus created kinds, I will not go as far to suggest that if a person believes in an old earth and evolution that they believe in a Jesus that does not save. My concern would be however that the attitude encouraged in ones heart for more trust in human intelligence and observational skills might be trumping God’s sovereignty and power and thus stiff arming the true Jesus. The gospel after all is such “so that no man may boast” I also personally feel troubled in my soul to hear a Christian side with the big tenants of evolution as taught in the secular schools. I become even more alarmed however when I hear someone suggest that the Bible is not authoritative because they are more dependent on man’s perceptions in the science classroom than God’s prophets and apostles…giving rise to a better chance that they may be coming dangerously close towards believing in the wrong Jesus. This is the unfortunate byproduct of the Biologos philosophy.

Jesus says that it is hard for the “rich to enter the kingdom of heaven” I believe that this includes folks who are “rich” towards self understanding and cognition. It is not those who cognitively process their way to Christ through loopholes as much as it will be those who, sure, on a base level see reasonableness to Christ claims and humble themselves by laying down both sin and self for forgiveness, renewal and life in Christ. Their greatest gift is not the best life now, but God for eternity. And God is again more beyond us than the universe is big compared to my chair shadow and who yet still loves us like our Dad. That is amazing. Many seeker churches try to entertain folks towards God…as if the dogma that such an amazing God was willing to come in the form of a human to die for us is boring and unworthy of attracting people toward Him.

Thank you for acknowledging my belief that stands more in line with the Word of God that evolution as many see it in today’s scientific circles is really quite impossible and indeed unscientific when we talk about molecules becoming the brilliant displays of creativity, color, complexity we see today by chance. It is the very idea of chance that calls for long periods of time needed for evolution to complexity so why would we become such quick buddies with these groups with a few semantics alterations to their ideas?

If one cannot get past the age of the earth problem, then ideas from Sailhammer are much better than long ages of molecules to complexity evolution. I see that many on Biologos would suggest that God intervenes in the process of evolution towards more of creation interjections. And groups like AIG very much do believe in evolution but evolution in the sense of smaller changes within a particular “kind” that God created miraculously in an instant. The latter I find tremendously more reasonable Biblically yet AIG is hated by many Christians for standing more firmly on God’s Word that proclaims a God of GREATNESS who is so beyond us that His works may appear unreasonable and confusing to our finite minds. I find that very sad.

Thanks again for listening to me

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If we cannot agree that the strength of Biblical faith comes on the back of objective truth and not my subjective ability to believe really really hard, then we may as well not have any more conversation because we speak different languages.

You quoted for me Hebrews 11. Read it again: Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." I will paraphrase it: Biblical Faith is in THINGS. Things are objective and not subjective. When the Bible talks about faith, it never promotes the importance of the cognitive ability to trust in something with my brain, but rather promotes the importance of the value of the thing that is being trusted. Remember, Jesus said that if you have a mustard seed of faith (very very small amount of it) you can uproot trees with it. (Lk 17:6) His point is that it is not the faith that is the important factor, it is the Object of our faith-namely God-who is highlighted. This God can uproot trees and He can obliterate this earth in a split second. This is the point Jesus is trying to make.

Another passage that you might find of interest on this topic would be the famous 1Cor 13 love chapter. Paul argues that love is greater than faith. Why is this we ask? Look at his argument here in this passage. It is because faith is only needed in a temporary stage of life that hopes in what will be a factual result down the road where we will be with a God who IS LOVE forever. It is for this reason that Paul announces that love is greater than faith because faith will one day be sight where it will no longer be needed. And the factual result will be a constant relationship with God who IS love and is loving. Faith is temporary and love is forever. Therefore faith is not as important than love. This whole passage nails down the objective importance that bases faith so incredibly well.

I would encourage you to study this more. There are so many marvelous absolutely man deprecating and God uplifting passages and precepts like these I speak of that were the one and only reason I was willing to come to faith in Christ. There are so many religions that make much of man. Dime a dozen I thought to myself in college. But then I discovered the beauty of a gospel that would really make no sense for man to make up. I knew that it must be of God. Paradoxically though, I found myself with attitudes of incredible joy (like I have now), love for neighbor, a desire to share about faith in Christ when on my knees in humble worship of such a marvelous wonderful God who knew that the greatest uplift to our soul is found in the very nature of things making allegiance first to Him! That is Christianity 101 and if anyone tells you differently, I would steer away from them.

In Him,

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There is much common ground here. One recent blog explores what the gospel is and you may find it of interest and thought provoking:

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I have read many of Tim Keller’s books and he is spot on in much of what he says. I have bought dozens of his books to give out. However, just like many of those I love the teaching of, there will always be parts of their ministry which I will disagree with too…the theistic evolution ideas are too far a stretch…I have written too much already on this website to go into.

Christianity is about a BIG God and there will come times where we will find the physical terms of the universe confusing as they are side by side with God’s Word. Mystery and confusion to me are good things because for me they remind me that I am just little ole me and not God. God stands outside of our understanding on so many levels and so may be how and when He created.

For this, developing a website and ministry that bolsters the idea that God created through means of evolution from small particles to complexity over billions… does not offer nuggets of humility through mystery but bolsters confidence in man and his observational skills. You might disagree. I have chatted and emailed a number of folks who side with theistic evolutionary viewpoints who are far more ignorant of true Christianity than I find in, for example, the AIG camp. For this reason I offer my loving warning towards those who are supporting such viewpoints…they cannot even be proven so why develop a whole ministry around them?

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AIG is known to lie and quote mine. I can’t listen to the likes of Ken Ham and think he makes Christians look stupid. I am sure others here know about Ken and AIG.

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A lot of times I feel like you are preaching to the choir. I understand the gospel. I’m pretty sure our core beliefs are not that different.

I never disagreed that the object of faith matters. I still don’t see how you asserting that biblical faith is in something objectively true obliterates the idea that some people have stronger faith than others and how we live and what we do can strengthen or weaken our own faith and the faith of others who witness us.

Your paraphrase is incorrect though. Faith is not “in things.” Faith is being certain and convinced that saving events have taken place and will take place in the future. πραγμάτων in Hebrews 1 means “what has been done, deeds, actions, matters, affairs,” not objects. What we put our hope and faith in are the saving works done for us and in our place by Christ and in his future return . These are objective realities, yes. But I think it is strange to conceptualize them as “things.”

The Bible promotes the value of adding knowledge to faith. In fact, it is even mentioned as a necessary thing that protects you from being ineffective, unproductive, nearsighted, and blind in your Christian walk. Goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, affection, and love all require human work and effort. We are definitely supposed to try hard.

2 Peter 1:5-9 “For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.”

Using your brain is not the same thing as worshiping your brain. Yes, there are mysteries and wonders beyond human comprehension. We should all stand in awe and humility when we are confronted with them. But that doesn’t mean we should swear off trying to understand things our brains are capable of understanding as if it is some sort of prideful overreaching that is not fitting to our lowly human state. Just because we can’t understand everything doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands and insist trying to understand anything is just vanity.

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What do you do with the fact that repeatedly in Scripture, the Law and the Prophets are also called the word of God. And the most ancient liturgies respond to the reading of Scripture with the affirmation “The Word of the Lord, Thanks be to God.” It is not quite right to insist that Jesus is the only thing that can properly be termed the Word of God. Any self-revelation by God is his Word.

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Ok. Maybe we agree with this:

TV preachers in the name it claim it, “word of faith” camp would suggest that a person with strong faith is one with a strong ability to remain positive, be hopeful for a job promotion, to be sure that something desirable even by the worlds standards to them will come to fruition in their lives if they have faith well enough. That is NOT Biblical faith. That is the subjective faith I disagree with and is nothing more than psychology pasted with religious sound bites.

Biblical faith is strong when the trusting that is occurring is trusting on the strength of the object it is trusting in, namely God, His glory and in His kingdom. So when a Christian demonstrates faith in God by say, praying that He grant them a particular request, then that Christian, if he or she has strong Biblical faith will demonstrate this faith in prayer then sit back and by faith watch the God of the universe who they are trusting to perform in a way that answers that prayer in a way that conforms to His will and many times will work out completely differently than expected but will always be to His glory. And when that person, if they have great faith in God, experiences God work in this way, they will find joy in that journey where they knew that they were watching the God who made the universe do His work…He will be pleased to give them fruits of the Spirit in response to such faith.

The very best faith is faith demonstrated in prayer through reading God’s Word. Powerful powerful faith.

And of course I am not against using our brains! But if it is using our brains to try to fool ourselves into self accualized mumbo jumbo of paragraph 1, then bad brain. If it is using it Biblically, they God says “well done!”

If the above is true, then Biblical faith must intermingle with truth. I don’t see any way around having a strong faith without truth as told by apostles and prophets. Faith comes from hearing (Ro 10) Hearing what? Objective truths. For this, one must be much more careful about adjusting the plain reading of the Bible on the fly because this is thin ice.

As far as understanding the universe and using our brains to study science etc, I had mentioned on a post long ago that I could imagine a new chapter in C.S. Lewis book, the Screwtape Letters: satan and his minions were strategizing how to deceive the enemies (people) I could imagine them scheming by suggesting that maybe they should try to convince these people to give up their study of medicine for example because this will cause them to get physically sick and die quicker…but this evil bunch went on to say that if they would fail to do that, then cause them to make such allegiance to the study of medicine and the sciences that they find ultimacy in it to the point that their addiction to it trumps anything mysterious and true from God and His Word.

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The question is what is the ultimate revelation of God, which is the reason that the Word found in John 1 is Capitalized. Thus one might say that the Bible is the words of Jesus are the word from the Lord, but Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Tradition is not the same as the Bible. Those who say that the Bible is the ultimate authority are not correct according to the Bible itself. God is the ultimate authority and Jesus is God. Thus Jesus Christ is the Word of God, not the Bible. Indeed the New Testament in Jesus Christ has changed the meaning of the Old Testament.

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Some of the stuff on BioLogos blogs may be a little difficult to for laypeople to understand, but you should give Mike the Geologist’s blog series on the Internet Monk a chance. It was certainly understandable enough for me to read.

Mike also just finished wrapping up this blog series called Mike the Geologist: On the Grand Canyon and the Flood in case you want to read it too.

If you read all of the posts, you will know that Mike the Geologist is a Christian just like us. And like us, he admires the majestic mountains and canyon created by God, but the multitude of evidence enables us to recognize that these geological features are very ancient, millions of years old. When scientists like Mike explain how these features formed through plate tectonics, erosion, etc., they are not diminishing the power and glory of God. They are explaining how God created His wonders by looking at the evidence God readily made available for us to see. There is one geology book called The Rocks Don’t Lie, and I too do not think that God’s evidence lie. I myself do think that living in an extremely ancient universe created by a timeless and transcendent God is very awe-inspiring and even mysterious.

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I would be willing to subscribe to a Sailhammer older earth view as a secondary option to a young earth view. I ultimately think that one day we will discover scientifically that the earth is a lot younger. Sailhammer is on a pathway where God is still Creator of kinds and God is Creator of Adam and Eve, yet the heavens and earth can appear to be trillions of years old if need be…I feel strongly against anyone who subscribes to billions of years need for the evolution of man and who snubs the idea that God created Adam and Eve as the first humans. There is so much of the Christian worldview that mounts on top of this and ultimately we cannot prove that man evolves from other species over billions of years.

Mike the geologist may very well be a Christian. But if he subscribes to the evolution of man in a fashion that mimics much of secular educators, I believe he lays the foundation for the propensity of the crumbling of the Christian worldview unless God see fit to make things different…maybe God is seeing fit to cause for things to be different in the very discourse happening in this very moment. .

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Or maybe humans and everything else did evolve by God’s guidance. Maybe He put evidence all around us to show us that’s the case but some people refuse to acknowledge it.

Keep going science.

Ugh, I post a simple question and it gets dragged out into a long argument.