To clarify, I was presenting a common sentiment in regards to animals, not my own opinion. I haven’t thought a whole lot about animal nature, other than that my cat really seems to genuinely love me. So that is why I asked the question. I wanted to draw out the kinds of conversations that I have seen in this forum, to stimulate my own thinking on the issues. I could buy a bunch of books and start reading, but I simply do not have the time. So I am picking your brains. Thank you for your contribution. You all are giving me a lot to think about
That is true in Western culture, especially the current American culture. Just my opinion, but I think Americans could use a little dose of collectivism. Not too much, but just bring it back in to balance. None of the Biblical cultures (as far as I know) were so lone ranger.
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So no church history, psychology, or ministry, right? philosophy? world religions?
Do you care to list some of the books you have been reading recently? That might nail things down a bit.
And what is the goal in such studies you are doing? Ministry? Writing your own books on theology? Teaching?
Ah… working on a PHD I bet… that 10 years sounds familiar to when I was working on a PHD in physics. Had to quit and take care of my family too.
That is cool.
My 3 years at seminary was only a bare introduction compared to that. That is more like how much time I spent in physics.
No, nothing like a PhD. Although my advisor said I should have one by now. Theology and Intercultural Studies, which interestingly is pretty useful when crossing Biblical cultures. Though many have urged me to write, I look at my life as more of a journey. I am afraid of writing because it will only reflect a somewhat fossilized version of my thinking at a particular point in time. The reason for the long time is more a feature of my curiosity than anything. I am not a very extrinsically motivated person. I think I was born this way. My only motivation is to understand more. Thus, formal education is only one facet in my journey of life. Perhaps not the biggest facet.
I am actually reading too many books at the same time, and it is freaking me out. Just kidding. That is why such slow progress. I have my fingers in a number of books. One of which is:
Walton, John H., and J. Harvey Walton. Demons and Spirits in Biblical Theology: Reading the Biblical Text in Its Cultural and Literary Context. Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2019.
And another of which is:
Heiser, Michael S. Reversing Hermon: Enoch, The Watchers & The Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2017.
The second is one I have come back to multiple times, partly because I am only half interested in women’s hair.
Few people understand what working on a PhD is like. No guarantees. Some get a PhD as gift and others work like a slave for decades getting nothing for their efforts. My professor said it is sometimes like one Xeno’s paradoxes.
Yeah I was like that too. Not very career oriented.
Hmmm… that one sounds intriguing except for the part about women’s hair.
I guess the book I spent the most time wading through was Whitehead’s “Process and Reality” and I am not a fan but highly critical.
I have started watching this.
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The part about women’s hair was a bit tongue in cheek. He is actually discussing 1 Cor 11:2-16 at some length. He is just summarizing some of the papers he has read about it and giving his conclusions.
Reading about this book and the talk of the sin of the watchers puts in mind a movie film called “The Gathering.” Is there some connection? I guess not… the watchers in the book of Enoch were angels, right?
BTW, I am not a believer in the book of Enoch. This and the idea of half-angel Nephilim makes for great stories and movies for entertainment, but I cannot believe in such stuff.
Having difficulty connecting the description of the book with this.
This book is not on a popular level. It is based on peer reviewed material. Think of it as a possible framework for interpreting the Bible based on the ANE (Ancient Near Eastern) cultural and literary background of the Bible.
This was the description of the book on Amazon:
Reversing Hermon is a groundbreaking work. It unveils what most in the modern Church have never heard regarding how the story of the sin of the Watchers in 1 Enoch 6-16 helped frame the mission of Jesus, the messiah. Jews of the first century expected the messiah to reverse the impact of the Watchers transgression. For Jews of Jesus day, the Watchers were part of the explanation for why the world was so profoundly depraved. The messiah would not just revoke the claim of Satan on human souls and estrangement from God, solving the predicament of the Fall. He would also not only bring the nations back into relationship with the true God by defeating the principalities and powers that governed them. Jews also believed that the messiah would rescue humanity from self-destruction, the catalyst for which was the sin of the Watchers and the influence of what they had taught humankind. The role of Enochs retelling of Genesis 6:1-4 in how New Testament writers wrote of Jesus and the cross has been largely lost to a modern audience. Reversing Hermon rectifies that situation. Topics include: understanding Genesis 6:1-4 and the Sin of the Watchers in Their Original Context; how the ancient Mesopotamian story of the apkallu aligns with Gen 6:1-4, was preserved in 1 Enoch, and sets the stage for the theme of reversing the evil of the Watchers; how the theme of reversing the transgression of the Watchers colors the gospel accounts of the birth of Jesus, his genealogy, and his ministry; how the writings of Peter and Paul allude to the sin of the Watchers and present Jesus as overturning the disastrous effects of their sins against humanity; and how the descriptions of the antichrist, the end-times Day of the Lord, and the final judgment connect to Genesis 6 and the nephilim.
Is something wrong with this description?
Yes, 1 Enoch is a part of the background literature of the New Testament. Something that underlies much of what the New Testament writers were thinking. These stories were part of the cultural and literary background of the Second Temple period. For the record, I do not believe 1 Enoch or any of the Pseudepigrapha are scripture, but in order to understand what someone is communicating, there must be a good understanding of their cultural and literary rivers. From my experience, that is what underlies so much of the animosity between the U.S. and China. Take communication in marriage between two spouses from the same culture and multiply that by a factor of ten, then take that and multiply again and add thousands of years to it and you have the answer to how hard it is to understand even a paragraph in the Bible. There is a spirit world, but I am not sure any human language is able to fully describe it. The Bible contains an inspired account of essential truths expressed by and in ancient Near Eastern culture and paradigms.
Oh, and by the way, it is not groundbreaking. It is for most ordinary readers who have had no exposure to ANE studies, but not for anyone in that field. As a scientist, you can well understand this type of situation.
I think some caution is required there. I think it is more like the literary rivers and the thinking of the NT writers have some common sources. It is like the difference between saying humans are descended from apes and that we have common ancestors. I can understand grasping at such as Enoch for we do not have direct access to the minds of the NT writers. I have no doubt that some genuine clues can be found there, but I also think digging in the details of the book of Enoch can over-estimate the influence on what the NT writers were thinking.
Mmmm… Our different educational backgrounds affords us different ways of approaching the subject. I think of the spiritual as the greater reality of which the physical universe is a particular part. What differentiates them is that physical things are bound and defined by the space-time mathematical relations which they are a part of. Thus spiritual things are what they are by their own nature apart from these space-time mathematical relations. In some sense it is like each spirit is its own universe and navigating this reality requires understanding the nature of choices and desires – their limitations and implications. In that context, I believe God is the source of life as the infinite being with no end to what He has to give and no end to what we can receive from Him. I believe this parent-child relationship is the essence of eternal life.
LOL My wife is Japanese and my Japanese is not very good. Yeah… it is a rocky road at times…
I have now reached the part where Jane Goodall agrees with my own conclusion that the difference is language. Yay!!! LOL And she explains why that makes such a big difference. I put it more concrete philosophical terms to say that human language has all the representational capacity of DNA and more and can thus be a medium of life in its own right – thus we are more than just a biological species with the chemical life of DNA. Like I said, I think it is a spectacular difference. On the other hand… a huge portion of what makes us human is not our actual abilities but our potential and so much of that potential can also be found in our fellow creatures. Without them we really lose too much… a little bit of ourselves frankly. A reminder of where we came from is important (the movie reference here is “Lucy”).
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Would you happen to have any book recommendations? Is there anything that I could read that could give me a better understanding of your perspective?
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the dangers of putting too much emphasis on “background” studies. There are some textual clues that scholars use, though. I am actually somewhat against Dr. Heiser’s thesis. But I read it anyway and spit the sticks out. I would like to switch my emphasis in reading and haven’t found a good avenue. After considering your answers, I find myself wanting to hear more of your sort of perspective and do some reading in that area.
My wife is Chinese, by the way. I like Japan, though, what a polite country! Regardless of what they really think of you (which you may never know), they are so polite! And customer service is better than anywhere I have ever been. The Japanese are awesome. .
Well I am certain I approve. It is much better to read enough to realize how little you know than to fall for the Dunning-Kruger illusion. Very good to make your acquaintance and welcome!
As well as ever, as could be expected. We only all become eusocial when we’re all under threat.
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Very well done! : )
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Aye, that’s a flaw of EC. The straw man of reductionism.
Suddenly I am reminded of Edgar Allan Poe’s Sonnet- To Science
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Aye, it’s all science’s fault that it exposes our desires.
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